On being pro-life

[FormerFundy]

(01-23-2011 09:43 PM)Tooktheredpill Wrote:  Yes, but that does not mean that we are morally exempt from working to alleviate poverty. . . Unless you're going to argue that because there will always be backstreet abortions, we aren't morally obligated to try to reduce the number of abortions that take place.

No, we are not morally exempt from helping to alleviate poverty. To me this is an area that is the Church's responsibility....NOT the government's. The Church can and must do more to help alleviate poverty, but it should also do more to help those who are poor to help themselves get out of poverty...the whole give a man a fish/teach a man to fish thing. I could get all fundy and start quoting Scripture here...but I won't.

Most of the times when I hear people talk about "we must do something about poverty", what they are really saying is "the government needs to do something about poverty"...i.e. forced re-distribution of wealth. When we leave it to the government, it just perpetuates the problem even further.

Quote:So we shouldn't advocate for peace? Also, I'm not aware of any place in the N.T. where Christians are allowed to kill other human beings as long as it's within the context of war. Loving our enemies doesn't include blowing them to pieces with a bazooka last time I checked. The same philosophy (namely utilitarianism) that is used to justify killing other human beings during war can be used to justify abortion.

Yes, we should advocate for peace...but there are some cases in which war is justified and necessary.

[Tony Mel]

(01-23-2011 10:13 PM)FormerFundy Wrote:  No, we are not morally exempt from helping to alleviate poverty. To me this is an area that is the Church's responsibility....NOT the government's.

It is the church's, but the government (as the representation of all people living in a given country) can certainly provide a framework in which poverty will not be an issue. Peoples are to better themselves, not allow unnecessary poverty to occur.

Quote:Yes, we should advocate for peace...but there are some cases in which war is justified and necessary.

Certainly not for WMD, oil, or involvement in other countries' civil wars.

[FormerFundy]

(01-24-2011 07:43 AM)Tony Mel Wrote:  It is the church's, but the government (as the representation of all people living in a given country) can certainly provide a framework in which poverty will not be an issue. Peoples are to better themselves, not allow unnecessary poverty to occur.

What you are describing is a welfare state...and it never works. Just look at what is happening in Greece, Ireland, Spain and Portugal. Heck, in France they proposed that the retirement age be moved from 60 to 62 and they all went nuts over there, started rioting and burning stuff. Once you get a generation of people that have been brought up with the idea that they don't have to do anything for themselves, because the government will be there to take care of them, then you are on the way to total collapse.

To quote Margaret Thatcher, "'The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money"

Quote:Certainly not for WMD, oil, or involvement in other countries' civil wars.

I will disagree only on the WMD and only in this narrow sense: If we KNOW there is WMD and it's the declared intention of the country that has the WMD to use them against us, then I believe we have the right to go in and take out the WMDs. But we have to be 100% sure that the WMD are actually there...not use WMDs as an excuse.

Getting involved in other people's civil wars, or going to war over oil...I'll agree, to me it's not justified.

[UptownHippie]

(01-23-2011 03:45 PM)LutheranEmily Wrote:  I am pro-life and anti-choice.

If there was a choice to make, it was before the pregnancy occurred.

Not all women have that luxury.

(01-23-2011 03:45 PM)LutheranEmily Wrote:  I am for abortion if it will save the mothers life. I have a close friend who had to induce labor at 20 weeks because her water broke and she was going septic. They had to get rid of the pregnancy to save her life. That's pretty much the only exception I'd make to the abortion rule.

So what you're saying is that your friend got to make the choice to end her pregnancy.

I'm pro-choice because I know that if politicians succeed in outlawing abortion, they will not stop there. Those who came for abortion will come after birth control. Those who want to outlaw an abortive D&C will not allow a woman who had a partial miscarriage to have a D&C to prevent infection. Oh, that won't happen, you think. Guess what? It already is. http://abcnews.go.com/Health/florida-cou...id=9561460

[elfdream]

I am pro life for many reasons, one being that I was almost aborted. The doctors pressured my mom and she said no. It was for health reasons and this was in the days when it was illegal. It would have been a therapeutic abortion. I'm glad she said no, my children are glad and so are my friends. I'm glad that I've been able to see trees,the ocean, the mountains and enjoy life.

And we were living dirt poor on a reservation btw, not a lot of prospects. Who knew that when I was two years old my dad would get job offer that would raise our standard of living considerably. Just because life looks bleak now that doesn't meant its going to stay that way.

And now there are all kinds of help for unplanned pregnancies. Crisis Pregnancy centers are all over and they help women who choose to keep their babies or who choose to give them up for adoption. We do care about the child and its mother AFTER its born. The idea that we don't is a myth that needs to be put to rest.

Nine months of waiting around to give birth is hard. I know..I 've done it three times but in the long run looking at the big picture nine months is a small blip on the radar when compared to someone's lifetime.

When it comes to the life of the mother you must treat the mother. If a miscarriage happens as result of the medication/treatment that is no one's fault.

[LutheranEmily]

"Yes, but that does not mean that we are morally exempt from working to alleviate poverty. . . Unless you're going to argue that because there will always be backstreet abortions, we aren't morally obligated to try to reduce the number of abortions that take place. "

I didn't say that we are morally exempt from working to alleviate poverty. I agree we should do our part. But I do believe that it is foolish to think we can completely alleviate it when Jesus says they will always have it. Help the poor YES! Will we succeed in erradicating it? No.


"So we shouldn't advocate for peace? Also, I'm not aware of any place in the N.T. where Christians are allowed to kill other human beings as long as it's within the context of war. Loving our enemies doesn't include blowing them to pieces with a bazooka last time I checked. The same philosophy (namely utilitarianism) that is used to justify killing other human beings during war can be used to justify abortion. "

Also, I didn't say we shouldn't advocate for peace. I would rather have peace than war, so in that sense, I am anti-war. The problem is that we need to defend ourselves and those who are in need of our help. In that sense, I believe that war is a necessary evil.




[/quote]

[LutheranEmily]

(01-23-2011 09:59 PM)Naomi Wrote:  

(01-23-2011 03:45 PM)LutheranEmily Wrote:  If there was a choice to make, it was before the pregnancy occurred.

"This assumes all sex is consensual. It's not. "


Uhm.. well, as a victim of rape as a minor, I know it is not. My mom tells me if I had gotten pregnant, I would have had an abortion. Im not sure what I thought about that at 15.



"I believe in trusting women to make their own decisions. I'm not in their place, and I can't decide another person's life or ethics. What I can do is help provide good sex education, so women know their own bodies and feel they can control their sex lives, and help provide access to contraception so making a decision not to become pregnant is a real option. I can also be supportive of any women who are pregnant (especially teenagers!) who want to give birth but find a lack of financial or social support prohibitive. I can support RAINN. I can support creating jobs in areas with high poverty so providing for children is possible. I can support better OB/GYN healthcare, which will help lower our maternal death rate."


I believe that killing life within the womb is murder, and I do not believe murder should be legal.



"Women who've had abortions aren't second-class citizens. But you can bet a lot of these conversations end up making them feel that way. Women don't need more judgment. They do need support."

There is healing for these women. And I agree that they need support. But feelings of guilt are not the enemy when we have done something wrong. We should feel bad. They should feel bad for putting an end to their childs life. And many do!! A very close friend of mine still cries about her abortion that she felt was best for her 15 years ago. Something would be wrong if she didn't feel guilt about it. She knows she is forgiven!! She rejoices in that, but it does not change the fact that she did pay an abortionist to take her childs life... Remorse will be there forever. It's not something that can be let go of.

"I agree with ending the death penalty and war, and ending poverty. The fact that there will probably always be someone in the world in poverty doesn't mean we can, or should, ignore the problem."


I completely agree.

[Naomi]

(01-24-2011 02:13 PM)LutheranEmily Wrote:  My mom tells me if I had gotten pregnant, I would have had an abortion. Im not sure what I thought about that at 15.

I'd have said it should be your choice. Whatever you decide, you should be supported. And being a teenage mom is hard, socially!

(01-24-2011 02:13 PM)LutheranEmily Wrote:  I believe that killing life within the womb is murder, and I do not believe murder should be legal.

Why not get at the source of the problem: unwanted pregnancy? I did list quite a few methods to target the problem. We all have at least one same end goal: reducing abortion. How much can we work together for that goal? There are people who don't believe that a fertilized/implanted egg is a separate person (some maybe even up to viability): do you allow them to differ in their belief?

I wasn't talking about guilt so much as shame, about women being made to feel like second-class citizens. Some women don't have guilt, but are shamed in public.

[Smith]

I find it annoying and ballsy that Fundamentalist will protest abortion but yet foam at the mouth for the opportunity to kill a Muslim in a military action.

[LutheranEmily]

"I'd have said it should be your choice. Whatever you decide, you should be supported. And being a teenage mom is hard, socially! "

True. However at 15, I probably would have allowed my mother to make the decision for me. At 33, I think I would be very upset with that decision made for me years earlier.


"Why not get at the source of the problem: unwanted pregnancy? I did list quite a few methods to target the problem. We all have at least one same end goal: reducing abortion. How much can we work together for that goal? There are people who don't believe that a fertilized/implanted egg is a separate person (some maybe even up to viability): do you allow them to differ in their belief?"


No. I do not, because fact is fact. It is human. Science says so. It isn't a frog or a bird or even a worm. it is a human. It is a alive. It is human life. Abortion kills it. Their belief is wrong.

"I wasn't talking about guilt so much as shame, about women being made to feel like second-class citizens. Some women don't have guilt, but are shamed in public.
[/quote]

So people who have done bad things, should feel no shame?
I disagree.