Great article.

[bean]

I'll shorten it up.
The republicans have chosen to RAISE taxes on those making less than 106 k next year. It's an average of 1000 bucks a family that WORKS FOR A LIVING.
Look it up!
Workers to have taxes raised courtesy of the not a penny more crowd.
Yeah, life isn't fair. But it can be a MORE just society.

[bean]

The most important part of civil discourse is to find areas of agreement, and on point 3 (bringing all of our armed forces home)--we agree! I also agree that the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans should disappear and the sooner the better. I also agree we need to change our spending priorities. Big time. We should cut the military by 80 percent, bring them home, and defend our borders. We need to be done buying huge weapons that can vaporize entire communities in one fell swoop that cost hundreds of millions of dollars each.

But talk to me in January when my paycheck goes down by about 50 dollars every two weeks because of the "non-increase" in my taxes. ..

The regular working class people need every nickel they can hang on to in their bank accounts. Platitudes about priorities and cutting defense won't pay their mortgage or rent, buy food, or the new fridge that family needs when their old one takes a dump. The top one percent can only buy so many fridges. They are hoarding the money.

Don123, we agree on a lot I think. I also am pretty sure that we have money in this country.

[myotch]

+1 for Don. It is about greed.

Entitlement programs make up the huge part of our national expenditures and most of our debt. Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid aren't stopping the kicking to the curb "whether they are disabled, mentally ill, or aged", or you would not be complaining that it is happening.

What ever happened to family responsibility? Why aren't grandma grandpa living with mom and dad? I grew up with grandma and grandpa living in our converted garage - and it was awesome! And it was all on a single paycheck - my mom's.

The rich - at what point do we stop taxing them? The money they have is after tax - and every move they make is taxed. How do we tax them, now? Do we really want to start taxing savings? Do you want to tax Roth IRA's?

Do we raid their mansions with pitchforks in hand? Do we steal their wealth?

----

I love the rich. I'm not greedy, but I wouldn't mind being wealthy myself.

[bean]

An "alleged Christian?" Really? Did you miss the part about civil discourse?

I'm waiting for the sermon about coveting. I don't want, nor do I need their wealth. My wife and I both teach. For the part of the world we live in, we make an okay salary. We're not headed for Cancun or buying new cars. We are able to eat, heat our home, and we drive one pretty nice and reliable vehicle. Our bills get paid. For that I am thankful.

What I want is for that opportunity to extend to more people. I also want to know how it is that we have the most unprecedented gap between the wealthy and the poor we have seen in the past 100 years. Look at the charts. Since 1980, it has gone completely nuts. The top 1 percent now own close to 40% of this nation. Can you justify how those 1% of people own so much and control so much? How is that?

You're right on this. At our current pace, all of it from the top 1% wouldn't do it. (The money on the books.) But if we change our priorities, and ask those who have prospered from building wealth in this great nation to contribute...it would make a huge difference.

Why aren't Norway and Sweden going broke? Why is there so little poverty in those enclaves of social democracy?

Myotch, part of the reason our society goes along with this game is that most people believe they too will be rich one day.

[myotch]

I know quite a few "millionaire-next-door" types. They aren't taking advantage of the system. They are wholeheartedly working the system the way it was meant to work.

The problem is, nobody really wants to live like these guys. The MND's don't do restaurants - heck, they don't even do what i would call real food (they buy four weeks worth of HungryMan frozen dinners when they go on sale - conveniently once a month). Nobody wants to put 35-50% of their paycheck in a 401(k) account, because their employers only match 8-15%. Nobody wants to live well within their means. Most people don't think they can afford a Roth IRA (when they absolutely can) Everybody seems happy living paycheck to paycheck, hand-to-mouth.

Nobody wants to pay off their 20 year mortgage in 15 years, much less their 6-year auto loan in 2 years. A lot of people like their credit cards and still use them at a rate of 25% interest.

People want "things" instead of "assets" - even if they know "things" depreciate, and "assets" appreciate in value. New cell phone, even if the old one works just fine, or a savings bond - which will I get with my next paycheck?

What I care about is a system that promises reward for discipline, savings, investment over the long haul; reward for ingenuity and creativity -- then, changing the game which, yes, tends to artificially bring up the economic bottom tier, but also has the effect of making it harder for middle tier to rise to the top tier.

This country has the best fed, best housed poor people in all the world. They enjoy amenities some middle class people in third world countries only dream of. But we have to, have to, have to allow financial incentives to the capitalists, who create jobs, and allow investment - the very things that have made our middle class the richest middle class in the world.

[bean]

Much of what you say myotch is true and I agree. We are driven as a society by consumerism. As people tonight camp out to get their new thing, I sit here and wonder why. I agree also that personal financial discipline is one key to straightening out the ship.

[myotch]

The MND is camping out tonight because the $600 40 inch TV is $250 at Best Buy. And because they saved $400 specifically to buy the TV, and will further save that $150 in their investment portfolio.

[bean]

I'm a saver, but not to that extreme. I squirrel away only what my employer matches in my 403 b. (40 a month I think)...I have a significant amount ripped from my check immediately for public retirement pension which should be about 70 percent of what I make now if I am lucky enough to live and teach until age 67...and we do 250 a month in a short term savings. Good thing because 2 appliances have crapped out in the last month and hockey season starts now! Whenever I make extra money from the various other jobs I do, it goes right in savings. We typically don't blow anything...Our biggest decadent expense is food...I'm too lazy to buy huge amounts of bulk and make meals from scratch so we pay through the nose (rural area/it's the only store in town). I don't care how rich I would be, I am not eating hungry man dinners! I ate totino's pizzas 10 for ten dollars all through college in the late 80s. And store brand mac and cheese for 10 cents each. Never again.

We could frugalize a lot more if need be. A lot more. Lots of slush in our family budget right now. But you know what? Life is a journey to be lived. So what good does it do me if I work my ____ off, squirrel away every nickel I ever see, eat hungry man dinners, and drop dead three days before retirement? Nothing. The key is balance in my estimation.