Correlating US-Israel relations with current events

[Josh]

The Baptist church I now attend would be anathema to an IFB(x). However, signs of fundamentalism occasionally pop up. Once, for three Wednesday nights, our pastor did nothing but read from and comment on a list of disasters that supposedly correlated with negative changes in US-Israel relations. This is an example of what he was discussing. I got the impression that he could tell from some of our expressions that not all of the congregation was going along with it (some are not shy in showing their disagreement). What are your thoughts?

[chris1000bc]

Remember hearing when I was younger, preachers quote the passage where God tells Abraham that he will bless those that bless Abraham and curse those that curse Abraham. I think that was the basis that I always heard.

It would not be crazy in my mind (mainly because of my upbringing) to think that it is possible that God may bring judgment on a person or a nation because of their mistreatment of Jews. That being said, I don't really think anyone who God isn't speaking to directly would know when that happens. We know that God killed one of Judah's sons because the writer of Genesis tells us that God was angry with him. Unless someone has a similar connection with God as the writer of Genesis, how can they say they know when God punishes someone?

Please, do not misunderstand me. I am not saying that every time something bad happens to someone that it is God's judgment on them. I am just saying that God occasionally in the OT brought judgment on a nation or a person, so maybe it is not crazy to think God would still do that. Still, I think it is a bad idea to say any time something bad happens to a person or a nation that it is the judgement of God on them. I don't want to be like Job's friends always blaming people for the misfortunes that befall them.

[Darren]

First off, if God sent disasters to different countries based on their treatment of the modern state of Israel, then virtually all of the Middle East would have been swallowed into Hades by now.

More importantly, God will bring this world to a conclusion based on His terms, not ours. How do we even know if modern Israel is the "Israel" of prophecy? We don't. Certainly there are prophecies that include the city of Jerusalem (I speak as one who takes Rev. 4-21 to be future, which I do, for what it's worth) but references to Israel or Hebrews could easily include all Jews living everywhere in the world, and not just the land of Palestine or the modern state of Israel. By the way, Israel is made up of more than Jews. A large portion of the population is Muslim, and there are many Christians as well.

[chris1000bc]

(01-19-2011 11:13 AM)Darren Wrote:  First off, if God sent disasters to different countries based on their treatment of the modern state of Israel, then virtually all of the Middle East would have been swallowed into Hades by now.

More importantly, God will bring this world to a conclusion based on His terms, not ours. How do we even know if modern Israel is the "Israel" of prophecy? We don't.

I think your first statement assumes that God has to treat everyone exactly the same. I think that God could judge one nation now and another nation later differently for a similar offence. He could swallow one up but not another. Still, I don't necessarily believe that God has judged any nation or person for their recent (since Bible times) treatment of Israel or Jews. I just believe he could.

I agree with you. It may be thousands or millions of years before this world ends. The current state of Israel may not be the same state of Israel that will exist at that time.

[FormerFundy]

Personally, I don't believe the modern state of Israel is the Israel of prophecy, so the correlation between US-Israel relations and other events is just silly IMO. The Israel of the Bible ceased to exist as Jesus prophesied it would in Matthew 23:37-39. The Pro-Israel movement within evangelical circles today is based on a flawed dispensationalist interpretation of eschatology.

[Darrell]

Quote:The Pro-Israel movement within evangelical circles today is based on a flawed dispensationalist interpretation of eschatology.

Well, that and the fact that they're the closest thing to a true ally that we have in a region we depend on for a great deal of our energy needs. I mean, if you boil it down there are some really practical reasons to be pro-Israel that lie behind some of the "God's chosen people" rhetoric.

If the nation of Israel were located in the Yucatan Peninsula I think we'd hear a lot less about them.

[FormerFundy]

(01-19-2011 01:25 PM)Darrell Wrote:  

Quote:The Pro-Israel movement within evangelical circles today is based on a flawed dispensationalist interpretation of eschatology.

I mean, if you boil it down there are some really practical reasons to be pro-Israel that lie behind some of the "God's chosen people" rhetoric.

If the nation of Israel were located in the Yucatan Peninsula I think we'd hear a lot less about them.

I don't disagree with you that there are political and practical reasons to be pro-Israel. I never said I wasn't pro-Israel. We need all the help we can get in that part of the world.

I'm just pointing out the ridiculousness of trying to attribute disasters here in the US as somehow being God's punishment for political actions taken by our government with respect to the nation of Israel.

If God was going to punish the US, it would be for far greater sins than trying to get Israel to give up some land for the sake of peace in the region.

[Lizzy F.]

(01-19-2011 01:25 PM)Darrell Wrote:  Well, that and the fact that they're the closest thing to a true ally that we have in a region we depend on for a great deal of our energy needs.
...
If the nation of Israel were located in the Yucatan Peninsula I think we'd hear a lot less about them.

So true.

[chris1000bc]

(01-19-2011 01:44 PM)FormerFundy Wrote:  If God was going to punish the US, it would be for far greater sins than trying to get Israel to give up some land for the sake of peace in the region.

I agree. Good Point.