A skeptical physicist ends up confirming climate data

[greg]

(12-10-2011 02:13 PM)myotch Wrote:  Greg,

That is why they have all but abandoned the "global warming" term in favor of "climate change".

Global warming does not adequately, reflectively explain snow in Denver in the summer months, much less globally cooling temperatures. "Climate change" is vague enough to allow the blame of any weather "erratica" on human industry.

(you shouldn't bring evolution into a climate debate. Apple and orange comparisons turn off not only your climate opponent, but will divide your climate allies. Just sayin')

You're right as far evolution/climate debate being apples and oranges, but the main thing I was trying to convey is the "belief system" that goes along with both topics.

[lucrezaborgia]

(12-10-2011 08:03 PM)greg Wrote:  You're right as far evolution/climate debate being apples and oranges, but the main thing I was trying to convey is the "belief system" that goes along with both topics.

Evolution isn't a belief system. I'll concede that there are some plausible issues with climate science and that you will hear about it a lot on school campuses, but evolution does not have anywhere near the same issues and the only people "debating" evolution are fundies. To class both as a "belief system" though...I'm really confused. Please explain...and wait for me to get some popcorn cuz I'm sure I'm going to simply love this!

[myotch]

Stick a penny in him, why doncha!

[lucrezaborgia]

(12-11-2011 09:14 PM)myotch Wrote:  Stick a penny in him, why doncha!

Not sure if you are mocking me or cheering me on...it's just too easy to tease greg.

[myotch]

I was teasing him from the other side

[greg]

The following are some fairly intelligent folks who don't buy the "belief" of evolution:

William Dembski
Guillermo Gonzalez
Werner Gitt
Lee Spetner
Charles Thaxton
Henry Morris
Hugh Ross
Michael Behe
Michael Denton
Femi S. Otuiaja
Paul Nelson
Phillip E. Johnson
Stephen C. Johnson
Stephen C. Meyer
Carl Wieland
Jonathon Wells
Richard Weikart

There are thousands of scientists that don't believe in "evolution." Many, especially in institutes of higher learning, at great peril to their careers, as was undeniably documented in the documentary narrated by Ben Stein a few years ago, entitled "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed." Have a look at this, and see how your broad-minded fellow evolutionists react to opinions that don't adhere strictly to their dogma.

[lucrezaborgia]

You still have not explained what this "belief system" of evolution is. ID is still creationism and I don't believe religion has a place in most science classes other than when discussing ethics.

I've seen that movie. It was a joke and for Ben Stein to bitch about academic freedom in a "documentary" that blatantly twisted facts is the height of hypocrisy. Here is some of why that movie was so terribly researched:

http://www.expelledexposed.com/index.php/the-truth

http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...ou-to-know

[myotch]

I like Ben Stein, and I have seen his movie "Expelled", and I even thought it was an important movie about people of faith living in the modern world. The movie, however, blurs the line between strict 6-Day creationists and those who believe in theistic evolution by putting them under the same banner of 'intelligent design".

What's not to believe regarding evolution? It happens and it is happening right now. It is observable and measurable. You, Greg, likely believe in evolution. Where you and I would disagree is probably the timeframe in which it happens.

If you don't believe in evolution at all, consider the moths of Britain.

The moths were once light gray. No moth is identical to another, so natural variation sometimes produced moths of a different hue. Their color is important, because it helped them blend in with the bark of the local trees.

The industrial revolution happened, along with residential use of coal for heating and cooking. The combined effect of new factories and a growing population left darker soot on the tree bark. All of a sudden, the naturally variated darker moths now had an advantage - they could not be as easily seen by predator birds.

Over time, and with many generations living over a year, or even a season, the darker moths mated with darker moths, and lighter moths mated with lighter moths. When t comes to the point where the darker moths will not mate with lighter moths, we gain a clue into "speciation".

Same thing happens with canines. Evolution allows for your knowledge that coyotes, wolves, poodles and pugs are in the same general family, but are vastly different from one another. IF you believe in the biblical account of the flood, you can even come to the conclusion of "common ancestry" for all dogs. (how one would not come to such a conclusion is beyond me, but...)

Evolution happens in plants, insects, fish, birds, reptiles, amphibians, and every kind of mammal, including humans. It's not a matter of belief. It is a matter of fact.

(Please, don't go into "big bang", as that is an issue of cosmology and origins, not evolution - which is put into place once life is established, not before).

[lucrezaborgia]

(12-12-2011 02:03 PM)myotch Wrote:  I like Ben Stein, and I have seen his movie "Expelled", and I even thought it was an important movie about people of faith living in the modern world.

Except "Expelled" didn't bother talking to any religious scientists who are not only successful in the scientific community but also agree with the theory of evolution.

Greg, contrary to what you seem to believe based on what you wrote here, religious scientists aren't singled out for their faith. They aren't put on the back-burner. They aren't ridiculed either. Heck, I've seen plenty of TV programs with these religious scientists featured.

'myotch Wrote:What's not to believe regarding evolution? It happens and it is happening right now. It is observable and measurable.

(snip)

Evolution happens in plants, insects, fish, birds, reptiles, amphibians, and every kind of mammal, including humans. It's not a matter of belief. It is a matter of fact.

The moths of England is a very good example. Dogs are an even more excellent example. Most of the dog breeds we see today didn't exist until very recently in terms of how long the Earth has been swinging around the sun. Dogs are very malleable. Then there is all that fun stuff inside of DNA and how it's transmitted through populations.

Here is another funny thing about DNA...the people who try to link evolution with genocide and all of society's ills seem to have no idea how DNA works and that was definitely true of the Nazi's. They tried so hard to scientifically prove that Jews and other undesirables were a radically different race. DNA evidence proves otherwise.

[myotch]

Eugenics was particularly nasty, and Ben Stein made a very good point linking a godless evolution with the eugenics methods of Nazism and, ahem, Planned Parenthood.

FWIW, I do not think Ben Stein himself is a six-day creationist.

I liken the relationship between evolution and eugenics as one between nuclear science and nuclear war. We have the tools to understand nature and build technology for a great and brighter future, but we end up finding a way to hurt people with that knowledge.