Anti-feminist themes in CCM

[Darrell]

Quote:Opposition to abortion rights is about how the Right views women as spiritual weaklings in need of guardianship.

This one sentence demonstrates exactly how little Ms. Rawls understands the moral and ethical objections that pro-choice people have to abortion. It's not really on the topic of the entire article but this line was seriously egregious.

[Naomi]

(10-18-2011 05:07 PM)Darrell Wrote:  

Quote:I think CCM is a bit liberal for fundies, and evangelical probably describes a lot of people here now, Daisy. So... "We" may not be ready for this discussion.

Can you clarify what you mean here a little bit, Naomi? I've read this sentence a couple of times and I think I must be missing something.

OK, I'll try to make that more clear.

I know Daisy is trying to learn about fundies, and evangelical Christians. I didn't know whether she knew about music and fundies, so I mentioned that they find CCM too liberal to listen to. Also, even though this is a board for ex-fundies, many people here are still conservative Christians (in the grand scheme of things). Probably including yourself. Yes? This article is unhappy with conservative evangelical CCM, which some here do listen to and get a lot out of, and find freeing, because of how we grew up. So, talking about how CCM is or is not anti-feminist may be complicated to discuss here. People who are finding freedom in conservative evangelicalism and trying to heal by listening to CCM might not find the topic relevant or helpful. It's... a different world. And we're all in different places.

Please let me know if that helps!

[myotch]

I, for one, am ready for such a discussion.

It's a beautiful thing, this prostrating ourselves, literally and figuratively in spirit, in front of the risen and living Lord, singing praise to him. Even if you deny this Lord, why deny the music's value as art in and of itself?

What is exactly wrong with a philosophical position that life is sacred, that human embryos are essentially human, and that one shouldn't kill that embryo out of convenience? Oh. It's anti-feminist. On that I will agree, enthusiastically.

My very favorite CCM song is Michael W. Smith's "You Are Holy". You want to see different gender roles in CCM, this is it - the men sing of becoming subservient, humbly worshipful, while the women sing straight-up praise to God. If that song catches me in the right mood, I am moved to tears; for what reason, I don't know.

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CCM, really all religious music, is exclusive in various ways. Is there anything particularly wrong with that?

Is feminism wrong because it is exclusionary to white religious males?

[Naomi]

(10-18-2011 05:48 PM)myotch Wrote:  What is exactly wrong with a philosophical position that life is sacred, that human embryos are essentially human, and that one shouldn't kill that embryo out of convenience? Oh. It's anti-feminist. On that I will agree, enthusiastically.

See, there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about what feminism actually is. A philosophical position that life is sacred and a fetus is a person is not anti-feminist. In fact, there are pro-choice feminists who hold that position. And feminism does not exclude religious white men.

I feel like if you wanted to get to know feminists you would have. :shrug:

[Darrell]

I'm personally no apologist for CCM music. I find much of its theology to be insipid and its music both in composition and performance to be largely both uninspired and uninspiring. And I'll be the first to admit that's an issue of preference and if other people gain value from it then more power to them. It's just not my cup of tea.

But what this author seems to be taking exception to is a little beyond me. Is it really that surprising that music that is embraced by denominations with more conservative "traditional" gender roles would appear to embrace conservative "traditional" gender roles? It would be like showing up to a patriotic event and then being aghast at all the songs about our country.

But aside from that I think she's taking what amounts to poetic license and trying to divine more of the music's intent than is actually present. Yes, CCM writers (and Christians in general) often use "manly" language to talk about fighting sin. So did Paul. And yes, they often use "female" language to describe loving God (which makes me really, really uncomfortable to sing or listen to, fwiw). So (at times) did David. Yet in Scripture we see both men and women fighting sin and loving God. Neither of those things would be found to be exclusive to any "traditional" interpretation of gender roles.

But then somehow getting from that premise of "fighting sin is described in male language" to "opposition to abortion rights is about how the Right views women as spiritual weaklings in need of guardianship" is quite a leap. That has a lot less to do with anybody's view on CCM and a lot more to do with an understanding of the reality of why the Church has traditionally opposed abortion. And it's got nothing to do with seeing women as weaklings.

[myotch]

I submit that a pro-choice feminist that believes that life is sacred and that a fetus is a person is either terribly confused or a sociopath.

My mom had to take over the responsibilities of both mother and father when my dad died. This was in the seventies, when feminism was starting to get full press with Roe v Wade and ERA in the front pages of the news. My mom had to fight for a living wage, while she fought off the male jackals who wanted her job (because a company director isn't a woman's job), her livelihood. She had to endure preaching from the pulpit aimed straight at her, because the pastor believed my mom should rely on the charity of the church to keep her home, pay off my dad's debts, and raise me - this, at the church she was the pianist for every time the church doors were open. For all the grief I gave her, she secured for me a private school education as a benefit of her job - a benefit she had to fight for.

She didn't do this in New York or California, but in the misogynistic (or, chivalrous) South.

Yeah, I don't know any feminists. :shrug:

Much of what passes for feminism today is not for equality, but for specialized treatment. Everybody is equal - some are more equal than others.

[Naomi]

(10-18-2011 06:00 PM)myotch Wrote:  I submit that a pro-choice feminist that believes that life is sacred and that a fetus is a person is either terribly confused or a sociopath.

lol.

I submit that you might not actually understand feminism or what it means to be pro-choice. And I didn't even call anyone names! The internet is a big place; if you want to know more, you can find it.

[Naomi]

(10-18-2011 05:58 PM)Darrell Wrote:  Is it really that surprising that music that is embraced by denominations with more conservative "traditional" gender roles would appear to embrace conservative "traditional" gender roles?

No, of course not, and I'd agree; I think this author was maybe just noting it.

I'm not really into discussing this article here. Maybe if we were in person, but some bad experiences on the internet with borderline fundies and ex-fundies in the past means I can't healthily have this discussion right now. So, I'll catch you all in the other parts of the forum (I won't be reading here).

[Darrell]

Quote:some bad experiences on the internet with borderline fundies and ex-fundies in the past means I can't healthily have this discussion right now.

I can certainly understand that.

[Tonx]

OK, where do I begin?

1) I don't hate pop. I hate contrived music. And I hate CCM. End of story.

2) I have not found evangelical Christianity to be liberating at all. I grew up in that system. It was toxic and dark and worsened my depression. Some of you may have found peace there, but I didn't. Church as an institution has left me disillusioned and craving a real sense of community.

3) Abortion is way too nuanced an issue to be categorized as either pro-choice or pro-life. Arguing about whether it's right or wrong is pointless and a waste of time. Instead we should be focusing on the issues that afflict pregnant women who are considering abortion. Incest, rape, lack of support, health issues, reproductive coercion, abandonement, financial problems, THAT is what we should be worried about. Peace.