Idol Worship

[paul]

OK, so I've been putting together a few different thoughts from different preachers/speakers/etc. Just wanting to cobble the thoughts together here and see if there is any substance to what I'm thinking.

First, our pastor in SC preached about idols the Sunday before we left. We all have idols in our life. An idol is anything that we put in the place of God, or anything that comes between us and God. When we pair this with the concept of glorifying and getting joy from God, we can say that an idol is anything from which we seek our joy.

Second, a speaker on the CD I was listening to yesterday (White Horse Inn) was talking about how the Holy Spirit uses discord in our lives to show us these idols. (Not sure if he used the term idol, but he was talking about the same thing.) His point (or what I got from it) was that when we draw our joy from something other than God, we experience discord in that relationship (whether a person or thing) and that is a clue that we are seeking to fulfill ourselves in a way other than God.

He made the connection that when we put something or someone in the place of satisfying our desire and meeting our need for joy, that person or thing has to measure up to the criteria for God (perfection, unconditional love, etc) and when it doesn't, that is what creates the conflict. The correct response is, of course, to realize that we are trying to derive joy, meaning, etc from this other and turn our affections back to God, and we do that through the gospel, which is the only thing that can truly transform our heart.

(Disclaimer: We can find joy in many things, but our true source of joy should be God. Our joy in other things should stem from that source, not attempt to be the source in and of itself.)

Some of you can probably guess, from my comments on other threads, where I'm going with this. I will leave it as an exercise for the reader, but suffice it to say that if this all makes sense and seems to fit to others (and I'm not out in left field), then I may have discovered part of the problem with some issues I'm facing lately. That being that idols cannot measure up to the perfection and love that only God can exhibit.

So, am I on to something, or am I out in left field?

[Presbygirl]

Yes, you are onto something. And this something exists in all of us. Our hearts are idol factories because of our sinful state which won't be remedied until we are restored. Of course it goes without saying that we are to "work" on sanctification through the HS until Christ's return.

I think the hardest part of determining what idols are in our closet is that sometimes these idols seem to be ok. Like, the idol of being perceived as a "good parent" like so many of us who want our children to be "good examples" and great products of our parenting etc... I know I've been guilty of parenting in a way that strives for the "idol of praise" from my parents or others instead of only being concerned with my children and their hearts.

The one thing I'm thinking I may not understand is what did the speaker mean exactly about "discord" being used to show us our idols? We have one very strained relationship in our family and we have been intentional and deliberate in praying and seeking out these family members. As far as we can tell, the
"discord" comes from a major idol in the other persons life. Sounds judgmental but, it is a fact. These family members love their work and the praise and satisfaction of others from their work peers more than their family.

The idol of "comfort" is also a big one for me. Don't deal with me too much Lord. Just let me live basically the way I want, ok?

**Your disclaimer is spot on!**
That was going to be my only question to you, the perception of joy and what it truly is. But, the disclaimer answered that one.

[paul]

He was talking about the Holy Spirit and sanctification. Here's a quote...

"Because He (Holy Spirit) can't really give us true and lasting peace until something else is taken care of in our lives. He is the great Sanctifier, but sanctification is not a process of moving from one good feeling and victory to the next. It usually has to do with defeat and all sorts of problems that He can create. A very pastoral example is, I'm talking to a young woman who says, 'I don't know, I'm having a hard time believing in God.' She has all these visions of who God is. God is the person who will make her feel good. God is the person who will transform her life. And this god is not helping her and she has a sense of unbelief. She is having a hard time believing; her life is in turmoil. One of the things I told her is that is probably the work of the Holy Spirit because you have believed in an idol. And that idol can do nothing for you but fail. And the first thing the Holy Spirit has to do is to get you real disappointed in that idol. And when an idol crashed it hurts, its painful. You feel a sense of despair and emptiness because the thing you've been counting on has in fact failed. And I think we should chalk things like that up to the Holy Spirit beginning that un-resting work, that disturbing work because the Holy Spirit wants to get you to stop believing in an idol and believing in God."

It was on the October 2 broadcast from the White Horse Inn (http://www.whitehorseinn.org/blog/2011/1...rk-galli/) Michael Horton interviewed Mark Galli, senior managing editor of Christianity Today magazine and author of "God Wins: Heaven, Hell and Why the Good News is Better than Love Wins".

[Presbygirl]

Ok. I agree for the most part. But, one thing that always concerns me is this idea that the HS isn't working AT ALL or to its fullest potential because of an idol we have. It makes God seem small. If that's the case, that can become very discouraging because we all have idols all the time. Yet, in spite of me and my sin Christ is at work in me. Am I over analyzing? It feels close to that Fundy idea of being "totally surrendered". Can we ever be totally surrendered, while here on earth?

[paul]

I don't know if that's what he is getting at. I think what he was sayins is that the Holy Spirit is working in the normal ways, the grace that is ministered to us through the word and sacraments. But in addition to that, the Holy Spirit is also working in the "shaking up" of our relationships. It is an interesting side of the concept, and I wonder if maybe this is what Piper and others are trying to get at when they say we should desire suffering. (If so, they are really bad at communicating it.)

What's really resonnating with me is that, when I put my wife (or family) on that pedastal as the source of my enjoyment (my joy) (as opposed to "glorifying God and enjoying Him forever"). When that happens, and my wife (or family) are set up for failure because I am expecting them to fill a role they cannot fill, the one designed for God to fill. When they fail, as he says, it is painful. I end up taking that in out of my family. Rather than dealing with their failure with grace, I respond in anger, frustration and whatnot because of my disappointment and pain. That seems to fit very well with my life.

[Tiarali]

This has got me thinking on the issue of fundy churches. I'm wondering if, while we were there, we were encouraged to see the church and the pastor as our idols. Then, when we saw just how fallen they were, it hurt so much. But then, those who are still in fundyland cannot see what we see because they are still worshipping their idols.

Just a thought. I'll be looking for a new church in a few months I guess, so I'll be thinking about these things as I do. I guess then, now that those idols have fallen, I need to be careful not to replace them with another, but to turn back to God.

[Presbygirl]

@Tiarali. Yes, absolutely pastors in many IFB churches are setting themselves up to be worshipped, although they would deny it.

[Presbygirl]

(10-11-2011 08:23 PM)paul Wrote:  I don't know if that's what he is getting at. I think what he was sayins is that the Holy Spirit is working in the normal ways, the grace that is ministered to us through the word and sacraments. But in addition to that, the Holy Spirit is also working in the "shaking up" of our relationships. It is an interesting side of the concept, and I wonder if maybe this is what Piper and others are trying to get at when they say we should desire suffering. (If so, they are really bad at communicating it.)

What's really resonnating with me is that, when I put my wife (or family) on that pedastal as the source of my enjoyment (my joy) (as opposed to "glorifying God and enjoying Him forever"). When that happens, and my wife (or family) are set up for failure because I am expecting them to fill a role they cannot fill, the one designed for God to fill. When they fail, as he says, it is painful. I end up taking that in out of my family. Rather than dealing with their failure with grace, I respond in anger, frustration and whatnot because of my disappointment and pain. That seems to fit very well with my life.

Hey Paul! I was over analyzing it. Yes, I totally get what you are saying about setting your family on a pedestal and looking to them to fulfill your expectations and then when they can't , you become very disappointed and take it out on them; which is inevitable unless we move our focus to the ONE who does not fail!
You are moving at a rapid pace exiting Fundyland and doing a very fine job indeed! Cheering you on as you continue this journey!!

[GraceThruFaith]

To add to the conversation, I think an idol would be any person or thing that is given more admiration, adoration, or devotion than it needs or deserves. Figuratively, it could also be lifting some thing or person on a pedestal so as to be praised or worshipped (like an IFB pastor).