"but is it God's BEST?"

[GraceThruFaith]

(10-13-2011 02:03 PM)Away-From-The-Umbrella Wrote:  Romans 8:28
English Standard Version (ESV)

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.


This verse conflicts with the fundy teaching about the need to hunt down "God's perfect will" in order to have the best life.

The unfortunate thing is Fundies claim that verse all the time and don't believe that it conflicts but rather supports their concept of "God's perfect will".

[senda wales]

(10-13-2011 03:50 PM)GraceThruFaith Wrote:  

(10-13-2011 02:03 PM)Away-From-The-Umbrella Wrote:  Romans 8:28
English Standard Version (ESV)

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.


This verse conflicts with the fundy teaching about the need to hunt down "God's perfect will" in order to have the best life.

The unfortunate thing is Fundies claim that verse all the time and don't believe that it conflicts but rather supports their concept of "God's perfect will".

It hinges on the "for those who love God" part, right? Fulfilling God's will is conditional upon loving God, which means keeping his commandments, which means doing whatever your IFB church says.

[bean]

Now I remember! former pastor in my old church would preach on this (think I heard his take on this verse at least four times in 10 years)...he would say "all things work together for good"...and then say WAIT A MINUTE, read the whole verse!

That is what he was getting at Senda.

For those who love God. And how do we know who loves God? (implied: They have all the rooms in the heart cleaned up and are right in the center of his will.)

I now get it. I don't agree with his take on it. But I get it.

[Annie Moose]

(10-13-2011 11:46 AM)GraceThruFaith Wrote:  

(10-13-2011 08:17 AM)Annie Moose Wrote:  Hezekiah, I believe, but although I haven't read the passage in a while, I suspect that's a serious misinterpretation of the passage. As far as I recall, praying for an extended life (healing in a sickness of some kind, I think?) was fine, it was just that later he got all proud and boastful and didn't give God the glory, so he got sick again. The sickness was about his pride and boasting, though, not his prayer.

(but like I said, I haven't read this passage for a while, so I may be presenting it a bit incorrectly! Go look it up yourself if you want the real version. )

@senda wales - Yes, it is Hezekiah. God granted him an extra 15 years to his life.

@Annie Moose - I have heard those types of sermons as well. You should pray that God's will be done rather than for whatever we are asking for.

I remember listening to a guest preacher come to my current IFB church. One of the guest preacher's members at his church asked the preacher to pray for him to get this great job at the nearby airport. So the preacher prayed, and the man got the job. Unfortunately, the story takes a horrible turn and the man begins to miss Wednesday night church, and after a short while, misses Sunday night, and after another short while, stops attending church altogether because he is working all the time. In hindsight, the guest preacher said that he shouldn't have prayed for the man to get the job, but should have prayed that God's will had been done.

Can there be some truth to this? Yes, alot of crappy things Fundies say have some truth. To refer again to the 2nd best book I've ever read in my life, Decision Making and the Will of God by Garry Friesen, he has almost an entire chapter on vocation, called "Vocation, Education, and Wisdom".

I also like how that story turns a fundy pastor into, essentially, a wizard with the personal ear of God. Because of his prayer specifically, the man got his job. Because, you know, God's apparently not big enough to just do whatever he wants. No, God will do precisely what your fundy pastor says.

[beensetfree]

http://issuesetc.org/2011/03/21/monday-march-21-2011/
Gospel for Former Evangelicals:Discerning the Will of God

Can't argue with a Frampton clip. Seriously though, some people need to hear this podcast.

[Bob M]

(09-25-2011 08:36 PM)Darrell Wrote:  What this question does is create a subclass of thing that are "not explicitly called sin but still not right." Which is, in a word, nonsense.

The problem with this is that this class of "Not God's Best" is not found in Scripture. Either we're striving (albeit imperfectly) to love God with all our heart and soul and mind and love our neighbor as ourself...or we're not. Either we are regenerate or we are apostate. Either we are in the flesh or we are in the spirit. There's no middle ground in Scripture for some notion of second-class Christians who are just not quite making it up to the standards of the really spiritual ones but still are kind of ok.

And loving our neighbor, being regenerate, and living in the spirit has ZERO to do with the personal standards that fundies call "God's Best." It's just yet another tool of manipulation.

You did a great job of explaining this.

I struggled for a long time with doing things that I thought weer right and good and spiritual, but I always heard preachers talk about their great exploits and I wondered if I was missing something. And I heard the "God's best for you always includes soul-winning." What that made me think was that if I was not soul winning, I was out of God's will.

You are absolutely right, it is nonsense, and a tool of manipulation.

[usernametaken]

(07-05-2012 06:55 PM)Bob M Wrote:  

(09-25-2011 08:36 PM)Darrell Wrote:  What this question does is create a subclass of thing that are "not explicitly called sin but still not right." Which is, in a word, nonsense.

The problem with this is that this class of "Not God's Best" is not found in Scripture. Either we're striving (albeit imperfectly) to love God with all our heart and soul and mind and love our neighbor as ourself...or we're not. Either we are regenerate or we are apostate. Either we are in the flesh or we are in the spirit. There's no middle ground in Scripture for some notion of second-class Christians who are just not quite making it up to the standards of the really spiritual ones but still are kind of ok.

And loving our neighbor, being regenerate, and living in the spirit has ZERO to do with the personal standards that fundies call "God's Best." It's just yet another tool of manipulation.

You did a great job of explaining this.

I struggled for a long time with doing things that I thought weer right and good and spiritual, but I always heard preachers talk about their great exploits and I wondered if I was missing something. And I heard the "God's best for you always includes soul-winning." What that made me think was that if I was not soul winning, I was out of God's will.

You are absolutely right, it is nonsense, and a tool of manipulation.

One of the final events to put me over the edge of leaving fundyism was a week of services by an evangelist who laid the guilt trip on heavily. After a week of feeling guilty that I don't pray enough, witness enough, etc. I finally had enough and left. It was a good reminder, though, that thankfully God's love doesn't depend on my best. We can never be good enough for Him outside of His Son.

[Bob M]

(07-07-2012 12:33 AM)usernametaken Wrote:  

(07-05-2012 06:55 PM)Bob M Wrote:  You did a great job of explaining this.

I struggled for a long time with doing things that I thought weer right and good and spiritual, but I always heard preachers talk about their great exploits and I wondered if I was missing something. And I heard the "God's best for you always includes soul-winning." What that made me think was that if I was not soul winning, I was out of God's will.

You are absolutely right, it is nonsense, and a tool of manipulation.

One of the final events to put me over the edge of leaving fundyism was a week of services by an evangelist who laid the guilt trip on heavily. After a week of feeling guilty that I don't pray enough, witness enough, etc. I finally had enough and left. It was a good reminder, though, that thankfully God's love doesn't depend on my best. We can never be good enough for Him outside of His Son.

I heard Jerry Bridges speak in about 2008 and he said we need to hear the gospel every day. It caught me off guard. I was taught in Fundyville that once you heard the gospel and believed, you needed to move on to meat.

What he said was powerful for me.

Hearing the gospel every day says that I need Jesus today as much as the day I believed. It says that I am accepted by God fully and without question because of the fully sufficient sacrifice of Christ. I did not become a good person. And I do not become good by doing things. The only good I have is Christ. He is my righteousness. Is God changing me? Yes. Am I becoming more like Christ, yes, little by little. But I need the gospel every day.

[GraceThruFaith]

(07-07-2012 06:59 AM)Bob M Wrote:  

(07-07-2012 12:33 AM)usernametaken Wrote:  One of the final events to put me over the edge of leaving fundyism was a week of services by an evangelist who laid the guilt trip on heavily. After a week of feeling guilty that I don't pray enough, witness enough, etc. I finally had enough and left. It was a good reminder, though, that thankfully God's love doesn't depend on my best. We can never be good enough for Him outside of His Son.

I heard Jerry Bridges speak in about 2008 and he said we need to hear the gospel every day. It caught me off guard. I was taught in Fundyville that once you heard the gospel and believed, you needed to move on to meat.

What he said was powerful for me.

Hearing the gospel every day says that I need Jesus today as much as the day I believed. It says that I am accepted by God fully and without question because of the fully sufficient sacrifice of Christ. I did not become a good person. And I do not become good by doing things. The only good I have is Christ. He is my righteousness. Is God changing me? Yes. Am I becoming more like Christ, yes, little by little. But I need the gospel every day.

Learning about 'preaching the Gospel to myself everyday' was a life-changing concept to me. I had never heard of that before until I read Jerry Bridges' 'Transforming Grace' book.

Recently, I landed on the website/blog http://paulspassingthoughts.com/, where the author of that site says it is basically heresy to do such a thing. He calls it Gospel Sanctification, which means that the Gospel justifies but does not sanctify. I have read as many articles as I could over there to see what he even believes, but he just rips on people like Jerry Bridges, John Piper, Tullian Tchividjian, and others who are a part of the Gospel Coalition.

FYI, I believe that it is Gospel's benefits proclaimed in Romans 6 that blatantly show the Gospel's role in my sanctification.

[pastor's wife]

(07-07-2012 06:59 AM)Bob M Wrote:  I heard Jerry Bridges speak in about 2008 and he said we need to hear the gospel every day. It caught me off guard. I was taught in Fundyville that once you heard the gospel and believed, you needed to move on to meat.

What he said was powerful for me.

Hearing the gospel every day says that I need Jesus today as much as the day I believed. It says that I am accepted by God fully and without question because of the fully sufficient sacrifice of Christ. I did not become a good person. And I do not become good by doing things. The only good I have is Christ. He is my righteousness. Is God changing me? Yes. Am I becoming more like Christ, yes, little by little. But I need the gospel every day.

I used to think that hearing the Gospel meant the plan of salvation: you're a completely helpless sinner, God provided a way of escape through the death and resurrection of Christ, ask Jesus to forgive your sins.

But the Gospel is so much deeper and richer than a simplified four-point plan. It's what you said above that we are accepted by God fully because of Jesus' sacrifice and that Christ is my righteousness. That is BEAUTIFUL! That is life-giving. That INSPIRES me truly to live for Him.