Tithing in history

[hac84]

Ok, maybe someone can help me with this question. Tithing supported the temple and Jewish priesthood. At what point did Christians end their support of the Jewish religious system and transfer their duty of giving a tithe to the local church? Did it have something to do with the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem? the rise of the State church?how did we get to the point where (as a relative's church is doing) where the pastor sets aside a "give your whole paycheck Sunday."

[Mathis]

You certainly sparked some interest. I have always been against the whole 10% thing. My wife and I give 10%+ but it is not out of expectation or obligation; it is out of love for our church and the fact that God has blessed us incredibly.

That said, I googled it and found this interesting article.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheTitheisIllegal.html

I'm not sure of the history of the writer, but he makes some very good points and seemingly presents a well rounded history of tithing.

[greg]

(09-17-2011 08:39 PM)hac84 Wrote:  Ok, maybe someone can help me with this question. Tithing supported the temple and Jewish priesthood. At what point did Christians end their support of the Jewish religious system and transfer their duty of giving a tithe to the local church? Did it have something to do with the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem? the rise of the State church?how did we get to the point where (as a relative's church is doing) where the pastor sets aside a "give your whole paycheck Sunday."

They got it (tithing) out of their very vivid imaginations. This issue and the KJV only issue are two of the earliest subjects that got me to questioning the IFB and eventually led me out of it.

I usually ask this question first when debating someone that believes in tithing. Show me anywhere in the scripture old or new testament where money was ever given for a tithe? Why then do we give money now? That question is usually followed by. Show me anywhere in scripture where christians under grace/new covenant were ever taught to give a tithe?

New testament, christian giving under the new covenant is found at 2 Corinthians 9:7 "Each man should give as he has decided in his heart to give, not grudgingly or under compulsion, (why) because God loves a cheerful giver" I guess that's about as far away from tithing as one could get!

[annalea]

(09-18-2011 08:20 AM)greg Wrote:  New testament, christian giving under the new covenant is found at 2 Corinthians 9:7 "Each man should give as he has decided in his heart to give, not grudgingly or under compulsion, (why) because God loves a cheerful giver" I guess that's about as far away from tithing as one could get!

I agree with you. Unfortunately that verse if often twisted to mean that your heart better lead you to give and God help you if you're not cheerful about it because HE WILL KNOW.

[GraceThruFaith]

Not only is tithing Biblical according to IFB preachers, but rich people getting taxed more is anti-Bible, according to my IFB preacher. Don't ask me why, he's never explained it but I'm pretty sure he's using something from the Mosaic Law.

[bean]

I'm sure Grace Thru Faith. Apparently, the Bible teaches the vast reward of free market capitalism. Anything against that is un-Biblical...according to them. Just one of many reasons I have chosen to not participate in the fundy/capitalistic/right wing/merging of RedWhiteandBlue and religion/etc etc. Unions are also not Biblical I have heard from some. ?

Those who buy this missed the whole part where Jesus took the best care of societies cast-offs. I guess they were too busy worried about whether or not their witness was being destroyed by one little thing.

[Ataraxia]

(09-19-2011 11:18 AM)GraceThruFaith Wrote:  Not only is tithing Biblical according to IFB preachers, but rich people getting taxed more is anti-Bible, according to my IFB preacher. Don't ask me why, he's never explained it but I'm pretty sure he's using something from the Mosaic Law.

No, no what he meant was that Good Gaaaaaaaaaaawd Fearing Christians are Good citizens who pay taxes unlike those liberals who don't work or pay taxes and drain the system

[C_Fresh]

(09-19-2011 12:17 PM)bean Wrote:  I'm sure Grace Thru Faith. Apparently, the Bible teaches the vast reward of free market capitalism. Anything against that is un-Biblical...according to them. Just one of many reasons I have chosen to not participate in the fundy/capitalistic/right wing/merging of RedWhiteandBlue and religion/etc etc. Unions are also not Biblical I have heard from some. ?

Those who buy this missed the whole part where Jesus took the best care of societies cast-offs. I guess they were too busy worried about whether or not their witness was being destroyed by one little thing.

I think a lot of people mix up the terms 'unbiblical' (meaning against the teachings of the Bible) and 'abiblical' (meaning it doesn't say anying about it).

[exOBCstudent]

(09-19-2011 01:18 PM)Donb123 Wrote:  Funny how this thread just popped up in that just yesterday my priest preached on tithing. It really annoyed me. I sent him a long email. Here's what I sent him which is basically an anti-tithing 101

......
Now I have a bone to pick with you. Tithing. I realize that this subject is de facto established in modern evangelicalism but de facto doesn't mean universal nor does it mean biblical. I don't believe it is biblical at all. I was shocked and happily surprised when I heard Fr. Riddle first preach on giving and mentioned that we commonly misunderstood the topic (as I already believed). I hadn't expected him to be right as some people who don't agree with tithing do not on the grounds of being dispensationalists- and of course he is not one of those. In fact it's rather ironic when dispies do reach back into the Old Testament for just that one thing.

You may or may not care that I disagree, but if you are interested, this article is quite good- except for it's overt dispensational bits. When he reasons from Scripture leaving out the dispy stuff he nails it. http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheTitheisIllegal.html

It should also be noted that none of the Fathers ever broached the subject of a 10% tithe. They always spoke of people giving alms to help those in need. Jesus didn't collect tithes for his ministry, neither did his disciples, and the Apostle Paul didn't, The earliest I can find is a council in 576AD.

Historians say about tithing:

Hastings Dictionary of the Apostolic Church:
"It is universally admitted that thepayment of tithes.. for sacred purposes did nto find a place within the Christian church during the age covered by the apostles and their immediate successors"

Encyclopedia Britanica:
"It was not practiced in the early church"

The Catholic Encyclopedia:
"The early church had no tithing system"

Preachers who didn't/don't teach tithing:
John Owen, Martin Luther, possibly John Calvin, John Wesley, John MacArthur, J. Vernon McGee, Bruce Metzger, John Piper, Charles Spurgeon

Lastly, there are serious problems with this doctrine, apart from it not being a biblical doctrine, in that it places undue guilt on people based on economics. I have no doubt, especially in these trying times, that there are people who simply cannot afford to give at a 10% level and then there a few wealthy people, who if they really believed in All Saints could do much, much more than that. While we are to obey God and follow him in faith knowing that he will provide, the Bible never ever claims that if we give 10% off the top every pay check that God will somehow bless us and meet our needs. The fact of the matter is that he will in fact meet our needs whether we do this or not. God is not a pay-to-play system. I realize you went out of your way to state that you weren't preaching prosperity drivel but every sermon I've ever heard on tithe, ever, leaves one with the implication that somehow 10% giving is meritorious. Giving at any level is not meritorious. Giving is simply an act of love and devotion from a grateful heart.

Great post! Thanks for posting this. I think you raised the issue very gracefully and non-attackingly. I used to think I was REALLY backslidden since I could never find enough Biblical evidence for that which I was supposedly COMMANDED to do.

[Tony Mel]

(09-19-2011 01:18 PM)Donb123 Wrote:  You may or may not care that I disagree, but if you are interested, this article is quite good- except for it's overt dispensational bits. When he reasons from Scripture leaving out the dispy stuff he nails it. http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheTitheisIllegal.html

Rabbit trail, but... is the author of that site both universalist and dispy? Those are unlikely bedfellows!