OT God seems so different from NT Jesus?

[NotUnderLaw]

Joseph Prince said something that helped me to understand it. Now, don't quote me on this because I am writing it from memory, but he said something along the lines of

When the Israelites demanded a law and promised to keep it, God set aside His gracious nature of dealing with them (which he had dealt with them so graciously up to that point - they had been complaining, murmuring etc, and no threats came upon them), and dealt with them under the covenant of Law - harshly, without mercy, but in total righteousness. Of course God was still gracious, merciful and slow to anger, as demonstrated multiple times in the OT, but His Law was the main way of dealing with individiuals and nations. And then in Christ, the Law was fulfilled, the curse propitiated and God would once again relate to mankind based on His graciousness.

I don't honestly know. I know that Jesus is loving and kind to the hopeless, and scathing to the self righteous. And I'm hopeless myself. Or was

[I should be working]

(09-14-2011 11:07 PM)NotUnderLaw Wrote:  God set aside His gracious nature of dealing with them ... God would once again relate to mankind based on His graciousness.

I would be very careful if defining things in these terms. God doesn't turn his gracious nature on and off like a light bulb. He can't - because he IS gracious. All of these things are his nature, completely and all the time - love, justice, righteousness, wrath, grace, mercy, etc. God doesn't have to reconcile opposing bits of himself. That's not saying that God can't describe himself as angry, happy, whatnot, since those are emotions and are not nature.

God never turned off grace when dealing with his people, Israel. In the case where they would go off and follow other gods (which the covenant said they would), his covenant with them was designed to lead them to repentance and hence a more favorable relationship. God's discipline is gracious.

[FmrMarine]

Ultimately, these are the types of questions that caused me to decide the bible is not real. It makes no sense whatsoever, that an all loving, all powerful god can create humans that make him so mad because of their sin that he floods the whole world, kills everyone. Then he starts over with Noah and his family but the humans are still screwed up so he decides to sacrifice himself to himself so we can go to heaven as long as we believe and accept the gift of this sacrifice. I never understand why Christians say that god can't tolerate sin. Sure he can. He's all powerful. If he wanted to let everyone into heaven, he could. If he wanted to make heaven a works-based reward, he could. Additionally, we talk about eternity. We humans are supposed to make a decision about our eternal destiny in what is essentially a blink of an eye during our time here on earth.

[FmrMarine]

(09-15-2011 05:12 PM)Donb123 Wrote:  

(09-15-2011 04:16 PM)FmrMarine Wrote:  Ultimately, these are the types of questions that caused me to decide the bible is not real. It makes no sense whatsoever, that an all loving, all powerful god can create humans that make him so mad because of their sin that he floods the whole world, kills everyone. Then he starts over with Noah and his family but the humans are still screwed up so he decides to sacrifice himself to himself so we can go to heaven as long as we believe and accept the gift of this sacrifice. I never understand why Christians say that god can't tolerate sin. Sure he can. He's all powerful. If he wanted to let everyone into heaven, he could. If he wanted to make heaven a works-based reward, he could. Additionally, we talk about eternity. We humans are supposed to make a decision about our eternal destiny in what is essentially a blink of an eye during our time here on earth.

God can tolerate sin in so far as he doesn't nuke us right away. We cannot tolerate perfection. We would be consumed in his presence.

Not if god didn't want us to be. That's my point. If you put limits on humans, then you are putting limits on god as he has the power to give us whatever ability, quality, what have you that he chooses. If he wanted to allow us to tolerate perfection, he could. If he wanted to forgive sin without a blood sacrifice, he could. If he wanted to heal an amputee he could. He just chooses to do none of these things.

[NotUnderLaw]

(09-15-2011 01:24 PM)beensetfree Wrote:  

(09-15-2011 12:44 PM)I should be working Wrote:  I would be very careful if defining things in these terms. God doesn't turn his gracious nature on and off like a light bulb. He can't - because he IS gracious. All of these things are his nature, completely and all the time - love, justice, righteousness, wrath, grace, mercy, etc. God doesn't have to reconcile opposing bits of himself. That's not saying that God can't describe himself as angry, happy, whatnot, since those are emotions and are not nature.

God never turned off grace when dealing with his people, Israel. In the case where they would go off and follow other gods (which the covenant said they would), his covenant with them was designed to lead them to repentance and hence a more favorable relationship. God's discipline is gracious.

My mom got heavily involved with Joseph Prince's theology for a time and there are numerous problems with it not just the name it claim it aspect. She finally started to see for herself but when people have been "grace starved" for so long JP sounds really good, I get it. Quality assessment of where it goes off.

I'm not endorsing him. I rarely listen to him anymore because I got sick of him bragging about his new car or whatever. But his teachings on grace were refreshing when I first heard them, and since then, I have found preachers similar, without the word faith baggage

Also, I did say don't quote me on it, because it was from memory, and I know he didn't say God stopped being gracious or turned off his graciousness. I just remember it vaguely.

[oneflewoutofthecuckcoosnest]

(09-15-2011 04:16 PM)FmrMarine Wrote:  Ultimately, these are the types of questions that caused me to decide the bible is not real. It makes no sense whatsoever, that an all loving, all powerful god can create humans that make him so mad because of their sin that he floods the whole world, kills everyone. Then he starts over with Noah and his family but the humans are still screwed up so he decides to sacrifice himself to himself so we can go to heaven as long as we believe and accept the gift of this sacrifice. I never understand why Christians say that god can't tolerate sin. Sure he can. He's all powerful. If he wanted to let everyone into heaven, he could. If he wanted to make heaven a works-based reward, he could. Additionally, we talk about eternity. We humans are supposed to make a decision about our eternal destiny in what is essentially a blink of an eye during our time here on earth.

I appreciate these concerns about the Bible and some strains of evangelical teaching. The Bible is much bigger than fundy and conservative evangelical views about it. I think sometimes those views can expose the Bible to ridicule. I think God is also much bigger than the view that you present above (which is all too typical). I also cannot believe in a God like you describe. But I still believe in God and am still a Christian. I also still have a high view of the Bible as Word of God. There is much to explore outside of your former views without throwing it all away. Take your time. Read widely. Keep asking questions. avoid extremes on both sides. And God bless.

[NotUnderLaw]

I don't know what lopsided grace is. I know I am not under law, but under grace. Any law preaching only serves to distress my soul, whether it's a list of "do's and don'ts", or guilt tripping me because I'm not acting right always and every moment. I guess lopsided grace to me is mixing grace with anything. If grace isn't the only thing on the scale, then I think we have missed out.

I drew a little diagram
Please note the title. I'm not saying the law has no place. I am saying it has no place in a believer's life I'm pretty certain the Holy Spirit and Grace can teach us how to live godly lives and say no to ungodliness