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steveb1 · 08-30-2011, 02:53 PM

I was never a fundamentalist, but I was exposed to its negative effects and from that time on have been observing from the sidelines.

Please forgive if this has been posted before, but there is something I just don't "get" about fundy redemptive practice. My understanding is that once you are "Saved", Jesus/God/the Spirit take it from there. You are "born again". You have left the sin-life behind, by the grace of God. At least in the authentic mainstream Protestant interpretation of Pauline soteriology, this is the way salvation operates: God freely gives us a grace that we do not and cannot earn.

So why is there so much angst in fundy groups about being saved? Some of them are very "works-oriented", as much , even, as they imagine Catholicism to be. They have a rules-based practice that in all practical ways does impinge on their salvation-status. Works, rules, music, clothing, where not to go, what not to do, etc. - all very heavily "works"-based considerations.

Even more mysterious to me are altar calls and rededications. First, to the best of my knowledge, none of these practices is biblical. Worse, they all seem to cast doubt on the saving power of God's grace. Second, they seem specifically and deliberately designed to "out" or shame those who do believe that their salvation is solid, lasting, and real. If you don't have a weeping breakdown at altar call, your Christianity becomes suspect. Doesn't seem charitable. Doesn't seem biblical.

Can anyone please tell me ... "Why" ... ? Thanks in advance for any clarification/information Smile

**Tiarali** · (This post was last modified: 08-30-2011 06:48 PM by Tiarali.)

My old church taught "once saved always saved". But they also taught that a separate situation was your relationship with God. Once you are saved you are expected to act so, if you do not act so your relationship with God suffers "Because YOU walked away, God never leaves!!!" and you will face consequences in this life as a result (ie God won't answer your prayers or bless you, you won't be an effective christian etc.)

Also we were taught that after death each person has their works measured in the fire; works of wood and clay are burned and works of gold and precious jewels remain. Can't remember the reference. We had a visiting preacher teach us on this. We were taught that some would suffer loss; but not so as to lose their salvation. We were also taught that there would be some who were weeping on that day.

Pretty scary sermon.

steveb1 · 08-30-2011, 07:02 PM

Thanks guys for filling me in Smile

Very interesting to see that there's a spectrum of attitudes even in fundamentalism...

captain_solo · 08-31-2011, 07:05 AM

(08-30-2011 03:03 PM)Donb123 Wrote: They have a screwed up view of sanctification (among other things). If a person is not showing adequate behavioral changes to evidence the Spirit's working in their life then their whole "salvation experience" comes into question. Of course this assumption just begs what sanctification is supposed to look like, and whether the criteria applies to everyone equally, and what precisely is a "salvation experience" etc (your soteriology part of the question).

So, in a nutshell, they are the fruit inspectors to see if you bear any good fruit and if you do not (in their estimation) then you're obviously not saved.

Its related to their primary theological issue, which is the shortness of the Lord's arm.

They "have to" be engaged in both judgement of others, and excessive navel gazing to ensure salvation and growth because apparently that is outside God's ability or design.

The problem is that I view those things as evidence of a lack of regeneration, which generally creates much tension when you express that to a very devout fundy. I don't "judge" them, I just point out that God judges, I can't, and that even the most decorated (from a human perspective) Christian has no confidence unless their trust is in the work of Christ. All that other stuff is looking on the outward appearance, so how can I judge someone who is or is not doing what they think is important.

DaFunk · 08-31-2011, 07:17 AM

(08-30-2011 07:21 PM)Donb123 Wrote: Why do they teach that when we Jesus face to face he'll wipe away all our tears and we'll experience eternal bliss in that perfect place... EXCEPT during this judgement period where there's a big movie screen with all our misdeeds and we're weeping?

Because the wiping away of our tears doesn't happen until the new heaven and new earth, after the judgement seat of Christ.

DaFunk · 08-31-2011, 07:54 AM

(08-31-2011 07:19 AM)Donb123 Wrote:
(08-31-2011 07:17 AM)DaFunk Wrote: Because the wiping away of our tears doesn't happen until the new heaven and new earth, after the judgement seat of Christ.

So it's an eschatological problem. I have a hard time remembering all the events on a timeline with snakes and dragons and whores.

Perhaps this will help. Wink

**Scorpio** · 08-31-2011, 08:32 AM

That chart is AWESOME. It deserves a post of its own.

bean · 09-04-2011, 09:00 PM

One of the hardest things for me to accept in my present church. This constant "are you saved" message with the altar calls.

As a young man, I figured--well, I accepted the fact that Jesus paid the sin debt of a fallen world...and me specifically. Ok. That's good.
Then as an adult I "recommitted" my life to the Lord. Ok. Fair enough.
Then, I would get the vibe that maybe it wasn't "good enough." What?

The more I read about theology, the less I like all this heavy guilt/lay it on em/make em stand at the altar stuff.

(08-30-2011 02:53 PM)steveb1 Wrote: I was never a fundamentalist, but I was exposed to its negative effects and from that time on have been observing from the sidelines.

Please forgive if this has been posted before, but there is something I just don't "get" about fundy redemptive practice. My understanding is that once you are "Saved", Jesus/God/the Spirit take it from there. You are "born again". You have left the sin-life behind, by the grace of God. At least in the authentic mainstream Protestant interpretation of Pauline soteriology, this is the way salvation operates: God freely gives us a grace that we do not and cannot earn.

So why is there so much angst in fundy groups about being saved? Some of them are very "works-oriented", as much , even, as they imagine Catholicism to be. They have a rules-based practice that in all practical ways does impinge on their salvation-status. Works, rules, music, clothing, where not to go, what not to do, etc. - all very heavily "works"-based considerations.

Even more mysterious to me are altar calls and rededications. First, to the best of my knowledge, none of these practices is biblical. Worse, they all seem to cast doubt on the saving power of God's grace. Second, they seem specifically and deliberately designed to "out" or shame those who do believe that their salvation is solid, lasting, and real. If you don't have a weeping breakdown at altar call, your Christianity becomes suspect. Doesn't seem charitable. Doesn't seem biblical.

Can anyone please tell me ... "Why" ... ? Thanks in advance for any clarification/information

steveb1 · (This post was last modified: 09-04-2011 10:22 PM by steveb1.)

I think this kind of attitude is what drew Martin Luther to Grace.
Questioning a free gift of grace, or God's wisdom in granting it to the unworthy, seems an ungrateful thing to do. It's hard to avoid, since we're all unworthy, but if we're loved in God's eyes, we may as well take it to heart and discard our grace-and-salvation doubting.