MacArthur says God needs to apologise to Sodom and Gamorrah

[Don]

(07-04-2011 01:07 AM)exIFB Wrote:  

(07-03-2011 11:56 PM)Don Wrote:  For all that, God does still deal with nations. Look at an atlas of 1948 and then look at a current one. Look at the differences all over the Globe. Look at the pain and suffering brought on by the collapse of governments and the death or overthrow of leaders. Yes, God does still judge nations here and now on this earth.

Why do you equate all the pain and suffering to God? And if it was God, you'd think he could be more obvious about it. The earth is sin cursed. The problem is sin. The cure is Jesus.

You said

" Look at the pain and suffering brought on by the collapse of governments and the death or overthrow of leaders. Yes, God does still judge nations here and now on this earth."

It's missing something...

Look at the pain and suffering brought on by the collapse of governments and the death or overthrow of leaders. <RIGHT HERE IS A HUGE GAP - YOU SAY LOOK AT THE SUFFERING AND THEN MAKE YOUR CONCLUSION IN THE NEXT SENTENCE WITHOUT EVIDENCE> Yes, God does still judge nations here and now on this earth.

(that wasn't meant to be shouting).

Anyway, I'm out of this forum. Waste of time. People only want to argue.

What is missing? I made a cause/effect statement. When Governments fail there is pain and suffering in the population.

I contend that God does not deal with Governments and Nations the same way he deals with individuals. That was evident in the first century. Many evils existed in society and governments but that did not hinder the expansion of the Gospel to the known world, nor did it hinder the work of the Holy Spirit in peoples lives. Yet, the most powerful nation on the face of the earth at that time was eventually brought down. Did God have a hand in that? Most assuredly. If God dealt with nations then why would he not deal with them now?

Now as to the Appology to Sodom and Gomorrah, it is hyperbole. In order to highlight the evils and the corruption in our present society people look to a known point in history and make a comparison. Yes, it is often over the top and full of hyperbole. But it does get the point across that we need to wake up. I believe if you read the "Christian Post" article you will find that is what MacArthur said and the context in which he said it.

The other article is straight up Mac Bashing.

[Ricardo]

I have a problem with the fire and brimstone, God is punishing us for everything bad. Just as I hear many preachers talk about being cursed for the sins of our grandfathers.

Scripture does talk about curses going down three or four generations. But it also talks about blessings four a thousand generations.

If you are going to blame God for all the destruction in the world, then you need to blame Him for all that is going well also.

[Don]

(07-04-2011 08:00 PM)Ricardo Wrote:  I have a problem with the fire and brimstone, God is punishing us for everything bad. Just as I hear many preachers talk about being cursed for the sins of our grandfathers.

Scripture does talk about curses going down three or four generations. But it also talks about blessings four a thousand generations.

If you are going to blame God for all the destruction in the world, then you need to blame Him for all that is going well also.

Absolutely! I totally agree with that. God is full of mercy and grace. God is the creator of beatuy, and wonderous works of creation. Please, I hope that I am not painting God as some cosmic bully. But he is also not a cosmic grandpa turning a blind eye to sin. He is a good God but not a Tame God.

As our discussion was regarding Judgment that is what I was focusing on. Christianity is not a Panacea. In fact some of the greatest trials of my life have been since my conversion. I lost my job and was unemployed for a year or so. It wiped us out financially and we have not recovered to date. My mom died of cancer and my wife and I were the only family to take care of her so we put our lives on hold to take care of her for six months until her homegoing. Yet through it all in the good times and the bad God is still God. My circumstances may or may not be "good" or comfortable but I can rest in the fact that I serve the same God as Joseph, and David, and Daniel and Job. And that's some powerful comfort in any circumstances.

So if God brings America down tomorrow, what can we say other than, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

[pblawman]

All the talk about dispensationalism and NCT aside, that particular statement is one that I've always abhorred and I'm shocked that JMac would refer to it in anything other than a critical manner.

[captain_solo]

(07-04-2011 09:31 AM)Ricardo Wrote:  "if God doesn’t destroy America pretty soon, He’s gonna have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.”

That is why there are tsunamis in Thailand and Japan, but NONE in Las Vegas.

is there such a thing as a sand tsunami?

although the big one when half of California drops into the pacific might reach Vegas.

[Ricardo]

Sand tsunamis. According to Indiana Jones, that is how the Ark was protected for millenia.

[RobMille]

I have no desire to even touch whether "God owes an apology to Sodom & Gomorrah". It's kind of absurd, and frankly to say it calls into question just how highly you think of yourself to say something that arrogant.

I think the main thing to learn is that more than God owing anyone an apology would be that if he said it (I didn't click through or search out to confirm, so I feel like I should qualify that with an if), but if he said it he owes, America, San Francisco, God & anyone that reads his comments an apology for misrepresenting God & Scripture.

[IFB No More]

Hmm. To quote MacArthur himself:
“Materialism, drunkard pleasure seeking, arrogant conceit, defiant sinfulness, moral perversion, and corrupt leadership… Do you not see [them] in America?”

These sins... hmm... hey! They're everywhere!
And if you go by the *fundys* standards of the Ten Commandments, every nation would have broken the 1st Commandment! Because there is *no* country in the world where the prevalent religion is the "correct" type of Christianity (Fundamentalist Protestantism aka cocktail of (the worse of) Holiness-Anabaptist-Dispensational-Puritan Christianity). But why is the world still standing today?

Maybe that's because God loves this world (and especially His elect) enough to decide to wait before judging.
Who are we, who are we, to sit on God's Judgment Seat, and pronounce damnation on another as though we are the OT prophets? Even St. Paul does not have the guts to do that, saying he does not even judge himself, preferring to let God reveal the motives of everyone on Judgment Day. For the final judgment is not only about who's going to heaven/hell, but more importantly where all truth about us is revealed - however hard we try to hide and distort it when we are here. And who else can do that but God Himself?

[elfdream]

(07-05-2011 07:53 PM)RobMille Wrote:  I have no desire to even touch whether "God owes an apology to Sodom & Gomorrah". It's kind of absurd, and frankly to say it calls into question just how highly you think of yourself to say something that arrogant.

I think the main thing to learn is that more than God owing anyone an apology would be that if he said it (I didn't click through or search out to confirm, so I feel like I should qualify that with an if), but if he said it he owes, America, San Francisco, God & anyone that reads his comments an apology for misrepresenting God & Scripture.

This. God does not 'need' to do anything we say.

[elfdream]

(07-06-2011 09:58 AM)Donb123 Wrote:  

(07-06-2011 09:52 AM)elfdream Wrote:  This. God does not 'need' to do anything we say.

It's obviously going too far and not a terribly useful statement, imho, but doesn't anyone else see it for the hyperbole that it is? I mean c'mon. Who really thinks Mac, a Calvinist, is going to literally believe he can tell God what he needs to do?

I didn't think to look at it from the Calvanist angle. You are right.