Fundies and youthwork

[barttheanorak]

The likes of Paul Washer seem to blame evolution theory and/or psychology for everything from progressive education to youth groups. The following quote is from Paul Washer's 10 Indictments against the 21st Century Church.

What think we to this? Who's grown up under this kind of teaching?

"Let’s look at youth groups.

“Well, youth need to be together. You know, they need to be together.”

Ok, well, let’s look. Proverbs 13:20. “He who walks with wise men will be wise, But the companion of fools will suffer harm.”

Who ever told you youth ought to be together? Who ever told you that? I’ll tell you who told you that. 1960s psychologists, generation gap. Youth are to be with adults so that they stop acting like naïve fools and join adulthood and put away foolishness which leads to destruction.

Now I am not saying you can’t bring youth together, but I submit if you do, have all their parents there.

And you say, “Well, what about the lost youth that come into our church?”

Well, what are they seeing now? The lost youth come in to your Christian youth in Church and they see almost the same thing they see in their own home, no parents, kids teaching kids. Or one guy a little bit older with mousse in his hair teaching your kids.

But what would happen if lost youth came into your church and they saw the children there, the youth in a loving, wonderful relationship collectively with their parents and they would go, “Whoa. I have never seen anything like this before. His dad, look at him. He loves…I mean he loves his dad. I mean look at the… So is this Christianity?”"

[Darren]

Why can't fundys stop in a moderate position when they go in whatever direction they want to go? Getting parents more involved in their teenagers' life is probably a good thing, but why the extreme? Seems I remember Paul writing something about letting our moderation be known to all men. Maybe "moderation" has to do with how well the pastor moderates the business meeting. Yes, that has to be it; it can't mean that we moderate any of our righteous stands against iniquity like kids being kids together.

[Lizzy F.]

He presupposes that young people are foolish and older people are wise.

Which is totally bogus. A higher age doesn't equal higher maturity.

Also, I've met people IRL who thought young people getting together was horrible but they were the first to sign-up for any other exclusive group that were women-only, pastor's only, married-women only, knitters, golfers, etc.

I'm sure that Paul Washes thinks that those types of groups are OK too. So he's just biased against young people and is blaming them for the world's ills.

[pastor's wife]

I agree with Darren that Paul Washer's position goes too far. Don't bring the teens together unless you have ALL their parents there? That's ridiculous.

Also I agree with Lizzy when she said that just being older doesn't mean you're more mature in the faith. Sadly this is often true. There are a lot of older folk in the church who think godliness = dress standards and music standards and have completely lost sight of the fruit of the Spirit. Or they think they're godly because they're faithful to services and have a traditional mindset, instead of actually living day by day to become more conformed to Christ as revealed in Scripture.

To me, Paul Washer (whom I'm unfamiliar with BTW) gives himself away with this comment:

(05-21-2011 04:11 AM)barttheanorak Wrote:  "Or one guy a little bit older with mousse in his hair teaching your kids."

This is ridiculous. Who cares how the guy fixes his hair? Washer is either betraying his own arrogance and prejudices here, or he is going for the cheap laugh, which is immature. Why didn't he say, "Or one guy a little bit older who hasn't had the years of a walk with God to prove himself" or "who often exhibits a lack of discipline in his own life when self-control is one of the fruits of the spirit"? But instead he focuses on MOUSSE? How shallow! I don't think Washer is fit to lead a group of teens!

The problem with putting adults and youth together in most churches is that fundamentalist adults think holiness means wearing certain clothes, listening to certain music, and hiding away from culture, while teens tend to like trendy clothes, cool music, and popular culture. This clash often causes adults to find teens annoying while teens find adults boring.

The answer is to focus on mission and not just personal holiness (an inward focus) or enjoyable activities (a shallow focus). Teens and adults can find common purpose when they reach out into the community to meet needs and do it for the purpose of sharing Jesus with their community.

And I feel that Washer's dismissal of youth pastors flies in the face of Paul's words to Timothy to let NO ONE despise him for being young but to be an example. Young men can lead youth well, but only if they themselves are godly more than traditional. If they've picked up on the vibes in many IFB churches, these young men think leadership is an opportunity for power and control. They are often passive-aggressive and use humor inappropriately to belittle teens. But a young man who studies the WORD more than the pastor, who cares more for Jesus than getting a name for himself in the fundy world, can influence teens effectively even if parents aren't involved at all.

[Annie Moose]

I was just about to mention Paul's words to Timothy! Obviously there is an important place for men with experience, wisdom, and simply the time to become a strong Christian, but many times over young men (and young women, for that matter) are used by God to do great works. David was a young man when he killed Goliath (not a little kid, as some misinterpret it, but still fairly young). Many of the prophets were young when they were called by God. Mary was likely only a teenager when she gave birth to Christ. And of course we have Timothy.

That all being said, there's certainly a place for oversight of a youth group. An older mentor could be very useful for such a group if this mentor is understanding and dedicated to them. But it's not the end of the world if a group is allowed to lead themselves, more or less. Some of the best Bible studies I've had in my life were with people my age, just sitting together discussing the best book in the world with one another.

[JordanMaria]

I never understood fundy's negative attitude towards teens. It was always assumed that if a few of us wanted to hang out, something bad was going to happen. There was no trust at all. As a teen my mother did her best to keep me away from people my own age, which were mostly the other teens at church since I was homeschooled. I think that's why I prefer hanging out with adults in their 30s+ and why I feel so uncofortable and weird with my own age.

Teens SHOULD be together. Yes they are going to make mistakes just like adults do. When I was a teen, I never understood the self-righteous attitutude adults assume when they had to deal with us. It's like they expected us to be perfect when even as adults they weren't perfect. NO ONE is perfect and I think in dealing with teens, honesty is very very important. My brother is 14 and finishing up his freshman year in a public HS. I want him to feel like his is able to tell me anything without the fear of my judgement. I want him to understand that there isn't a standard of perfection that I expect him to reach, unlike my mom who demands perfection. He's started to ask me about drugs and drinking and if my mom knew I told him once I got so drunk I was vomiting all over, she would absolutely KILL me. She expects me to be an example of perfection, but I think he respects me more because I'm able to admit to my shortcomings and offer wiser alternatives to things. I don't even expect him to listen to me. He's his own person. He'll learn on his own. All I do is share what things I've learned and trust him to make his own smart choices. Some stuff he shares with me, he wouldn't DARE share with my mother and I am so thankful that he trusts me enough to do that. I don't want him facing problems on his own.

[Annie Moose]

^^You sound like a great sister, in my opinion!

[barttheanorak]

You certainly sound like a great sister JordanMaria. I had a grandmother who was like that with me. I miss her to this day.

But what they tend to contend in fundy circles is that youth groups didn't start until the 20th Century (or possibly a bit before) and that the church in the book of Acts made no special provision for children's instruction whatsoever. Personally I despise the fanatical emphasis some put on the family-integrated model but I have heard a sermon mp3 from one of them where you heard a little kid saying Amen in a cute voice. rather than just hearing them screaming.

That breaks my heart when I watch I'llBeHonest videos. Tim Conway will be shouting away and you'll hear kids crying in the background.

C

[Shoes]

' Paul Washer’ Wrote:
And you say, “Well, what about the lost youth that come into our church?”

Well, what are they seeing now? The lost youth come in to your Christian youth in Church and they see almost the same thing they see in their own home, no parents, kids teaching kids. Or one guy a little bit older with mousse in his hair teaching your kids.

What an ass. Typical BS that I heard my whole life and that made me laugh at fundy hypocrisy. Let’s make fun of what someone uses in their hair. So if you’re an old bald dude, or you use brill cream (or whatever), that makes any difference. I guarantee that any kid sitting and listening to this was totally turned off. Congrats for putting another brick in the wall between them and GOD. The whole millstone around your neck thing must not apply to you. If a teenager has any thoughts of his own [and isn’t totally drunk on the Kool Aid ™] he/she will see the blatant hatred and ignorance in this guy’s tirade. Any credibility or truth he had in there is annulled by his stupidity.