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chris1000bc · 05-11-2011, 09:04 AM

Hi,

I am not trying to resurrect this thread. I just wanted to post a link to an interesting article on "The Hopelessness of the Unevangelized" by Robert H. Gundry that I ran across on the Gospel Coalition's website. The article is from a traditional Christian point of view. It's an interesting article. Smile

Shoes · 05-11-2011, 09:21 AM

(05-11-2011 09:04 AM)chris1000bc Wrote: I just wanted to post a link to an interesting article on "The Hopelessness of the Unevangelized" by Robert H. Gundry that I ran across on the Gospel Coalition's website.

Thanks for the article. it was pretty good and had alot of answers. Thanks for remembering this post and putting it out there. Not going to lie, i still wrestle with this one. Smile

just_a_thinker · 05-11-2011, 03:09 PM

(05-11-2011 09:04 AM)chris1000bc Wrote: Hi,

I am not trying to resurrect this thread. I just wanted to post a link to an interesting article on "The Hopelessness of the Unevangelized" by Robert H. Gundry that I ran across on the Gospel Coalition's website. The article is from a traditional Christian point of view. It's an interesting article.

Thank you. I found it to be an interesting read as well.

Don · (This post was last modified: 05-21-2011 12:19 AM by Don.)

(04-29-2011 07:11 AM)Shoes Wrote: I can do numbers, but my mastery of language does not approach “just-a-thinkers.” He has been able to eloquently put into words the misgivings and questions tumbling about in my head.

Don Wrote:If it were a question of justice then God would be completely justified in not extending salvation to anyone. To ask how it is just of God to punish the rest of us for something we had no choice in pre-supposes that somehow we are innately "good."

So, to plead humanity's case based on forced existence is rather odd. That is a de facto plea for annihilation, no, more of a plea for non-existence. (That is arguing the absurd) The argument is saying that if I can't be born good then I don't want to exist. So really, the argument is an indictment against God and his sovereignty. If I cannot be born good enough to meet God on my terms then I don't see why I have to play at all.

I think (and I hope I am not speaking out of turn), just_a_thinker is questioning the fact that we are born sinful, and therefore damned. So we are damned from the minute we are born, with no change to change that. We are brought into existence without the chance of ever being redeemed. (I have spoken in past posts with MANY people and most have agreed that not everyone will have the chance to hear the gospel.) So basically, we are hopelessly damned through no fault of our own, other than God's choice to bring us into existence.

The argument that it is our sin that damns us is invalid, IMO. I know that eventually: “The wages of sin is death,” but this is after the fact that we come into existence. We have no choice in the matter. Even if we made every correct choice throughout our entire life, the fact that we have a sin nature would still damn us eternally. Plus we can’t live a sinless life: “All have sinned.” So, we are screwed from square one. So if we are screwed from square one, without the chance of ever being made right with God, how is this “fair” (for lack of a better term)? It seems God has set us up for instant failure and eternal damnation (if we never hear the gospel.)

Don Wrote:One last point: If you hold to the free will of man theory and that God is only “just” if he gives all men every where in all points of time the choice to accept him or reject him, then there is a legitimate question regarding God's goodness and such a view tends to make God look weak and capricious regarding salvation and the offer of salvation. In fact if God is bound to give all people, everywhere, in all points of time, the ability to choose him... then Oprah's argument against God bears investigation.

I would never say God is weak. But I just can’t understand this subject. I do not have the mind of God, so I am chalking up my ignorance on this subject to that fact.

Don Wrote:If, however, God is sovereign in whom he chooses to make alive, then the argument against God's right to, or justice in, condemn(ing) the entire human race becomes a moot point. As God chose one man (Abram) to bless and make a mighty nation, so God chooses whom he will in order to accomplish his purposes for the whole of humanity.

This statement seems wise, but I don’t understand it. Please explain this further in laymen’s terms. It might hold the key to “getting” this.

I'm finally getting back to this one... sorry for the delay.

Ok, it boils down to our view of God. How do we see God. Do we see God as Job's friends did? As someone to be appeased or do we see him as he revealed himself to Job. The one is a god of the imagination. He is held in high regard and worshipped but he is seen in the light of how he is imagined to be by the three friends. The other is God as he reveals himself to be. Almighty, all knowing and all things conforming to his will.
Now, we can agree that (in our natural state) we are spiritually dead to God. There is nothing we can do to change that, dead is dead. (I believe that this is where we miss it, in that we confuse our living, breathing, cognitive existence with being alive to God.) We are dead to God, and all our reasonings and arguments to the contrary are merely exercises in our own opinions of self existence.
So, if God did absolutely nothing regarding the condition of man, then by default we would all deserve God's perfect justice. We would all be guilty before God and hell would be all we deserved and rightly so.
But God, (I know a very fundy phrase) in his mercy, declared before the world began, that he would extend mercy to those he chose to and by his sovereign grace would make them alive.
Which brings us to the crux of the matter free choice or Sovereignty. God saw all of humanity dead before him. Not just a few, or some but all of humanity was dead. Now, is God to be labled unjust because he chooses to give life to whom he will? Are we going to call God unfair because he gives life to "a" and not "b"? Why? Do we have the mind of God so that we can judge God?
I am often baffled by the way we approach this subject. We are not praising God for his mercy and his grace , instead we take an entitlement approach to God's grace and complain to God that we don't think he is being fair because everyone is not going to heaven. When we make the autonomous free will claim we further damage the view of God. The autonomous free will claim says that there is something in the universe that is greater than God. It makes man's (so called) free will greater than God's will and makes God subject to our will, subject to our choices. It also makes God capricious, unjust and unfair. If free will is given to all men then God, in order to be just, MUST allow all men, in all time, in all places, everywhere the same unrestricted access to the Gospel... otherwise he is toying with us and denying some the opportunity to choose everlasting life.

Why Sovereignty?
As God did with Abram he and he alone made the blood covenant. He chose to make a promise to Abram that he could not break. He chose Abram, out of all mankind to choose from, he chose Abram. He called Abram, not the other way around. He gave Abram life and poured out mercy on him because he chose to according to his will and his plan. God blessed the nation that rose from Abraham's children and he blessed them. Out of all the people groups in the world, he chose these people to proclaim who he was to the entire world. Did all of Abraham's children follow their ancestor? Obviously not. Did God give spiritual life to all of Israel? That question is unanswerable but I believe that we can safely say no, given the history we have of them and of all of mankind for that matter. (which goes back to our natural condition and what we deserve.)

So the only way to look at our condition is to see it as God sees it. We were all dead before him. In his Justice we were guilty before him and only deserved eternal damnation. In his mercy, he extended grace and life to to those whom he chooses. That is amazing to me. That is not a point to beat God up for but to praise him for. That he would choose to save anyone is unfathomable. That he would allow his son to be murdered by his enemies in order that he may in turn offer them grace and life is mind-boggling.

I hope that explains it better. I am a poor apologist but I try to explain it as best as I know how. To me it is a great comfort to know that God is completely sovereign. Who can withstand him? Who can counsel him? (one of the charges that is frequently made against such Sovereignty is why evangelize?) Why? Because I do not have the mind of God. I do not know who God is saving according to Acts 2:47. I am to be a witness of the Almighty Creator God and his Gospel. I cannot save anyone but I can be a witness.

Wow, the baptist (windbag) is strong in this one... I'll stop before Tolstoy gets jealous.

Shoes · 05-24-2011, 07:39 AM

@ Don- wow. thank you for the time spent on this one. it really boils down to sinful, finite man trying to understand an omnipotent infinite God. It can't be done. We can't know the mind of God, his sense of justice, his idea of mercy.

you should write a book. oh wait ... Big Grin

Shoes · 05-24-2011, 07:48 AM

Donb123 Wrote:
Don Wrote:As God did with Abram he and he alone made the blood covenant. He chose to make a promise to Abram that he could not break. He chose Abram, out of all mankind to choose from, he chose Abram. He called Abram, not the other way around. He gave Abram life and poured out mercy on him because he chose to according to his will and his plan.
The whole of the entire OT is the God (who doesn't change) choosing whom he would.

The two Don’s … it’s confusing. One of you needs a clever nickname (and 123 isn’t what I mean!) The above helped. God picked Abe (we studied him for the past few months in SS) and I really was amazed that he was God’s 1st choice. He repeatedly failed, lied and disobeyed (AND he laughed first!) But God .. yeah. The glimpses we get in the bible of god are like the small interactions of man with an infinite God. We all have a slightly different finite experience of the same infinite being. Of course we don’t get it.

I’m not going to pretend I get it, i'm just happy that God saved my soul.

Michael Matthews · 05-25-2011, 03:45 PM

Just a couple thoughts.. First, Jesus did indeed die to save all mankind. Since He was/is God, His death was sufficient to save the entire human race throughout all time. I Tim 4:10 states that God is the Savior of All people, especially those who believe. Even if someone doesn't believe, God is still his/her Savior, because his/her sins have already been "paid for". Everyone has been redeemed.

That doesn't mean that everyone will get to Heaven. Every gift has to be opened and put to use. Justification, becoming a child of God, is a free gift; but Heaven is our inheritance. Receiving an inheritance depends on one's relationship with one's Father.

The other thought is this: all the references to election and predestination in the NT are plural, not singular. No where does it say that Michael Matthews is predestined for Heaven; it says that We are predestined. As long as I am part of the We (the Body of Christ), I can have security. If I'm not, I can't.

None of this limits God's sovereignty. Salvation is God's work from beginning to end. But He never takes away our free will.

Michael

Don · 05-25-2011, 05:37 PM

(05-25-2011 03:45 PM)Michael Matthews Wrote: Just a couple thoughts.. First, Jesus did indeed die to save all mankind. Since He was/is God, His death was sufficient to save the entire human race throughout all time. I Tim 4:10 states that God is the Savior of All people, especially those who believe. Even if someone doesn't believe, God is still his/her Savior, because his/her sins have already been "paid for". Everyone has been redeemed.

That doesn't mean that everyone will get to Heaven. Every gift has to be opened and put to use. Justification, becoming a child of God, is a free gift; but Heaven is our inheritance. Receiving an inheritance depends on one's relationship with one's Father.

The other thought is this: all the references to election and predestination in the NT are plural, not singular. No where does it say that Michael Matthews is predestined for Heaven; it says that We are predestined. As long as I am part of the We (the Body of Christ), I can have security. If I'm not, I can't.

None of this limits God's sovereignty. Salvation is God's work from beginning to end. But He never takes away our free will.

Michael

Define Free will please.
What is man's natural condition before God?
What is mankind's nature apart from God?
How does free will operate? (can it operate outside the boundries of man's fallen nature?)
Can man's free will twart God's will?

My answers to these questions are found above.
Just looking to establish a baseline so we know where each other are coming from as we begin to talk.

Michael Matthews · 05-25-2011, 10:52 PM

Free will is exactly what it implies: the freedom to accept or reject God. As humans, we do not have full knowledge of God, as the angels did. When they rebelled, their fate was sealed. We have the ability to repent.

Mankind was created in the image and likeness of God. That image and likeness have been scarred by sin, both inherited and actual. Outside of Christ, we are all dead in sin; but the entire world has been redeemed.

If God determines something, it is set. However, there are a number of things He has chosen Not to determine. Scripture tells us that He is not willing that any should perish; yet we know that many will choose to reject Him, even at the price of their souls.

Michael

Don · 05-26-2011, 12:41 AM

(05-25-2011 10:52 PM)Michael Matthews Wrote: Free will is exactly what it implies: the freedom to accept or reject God. As humans, we do not have full knowledge of God, as the angels did. When they rebelled, their fate was sealed. We have the ability to repent.

Mankind was created in the image and likeness of God. That image and likeness have been scarred by sin, both inherited and actual. Outside of Christ, we are all dead in sin; but the entire world has been redeemed.

If God determines something, it is set. However, there are a number of things He has chosen Not to determine. Scripture tells us that He is not willing that any should perish; yet we know that many will choose to reject Him, even at the price of their souls.

Michael

So, prior to being given new life, what condition is mankind in before God or according to God? Is he alive or dead? Obviously we are living breathing souls but are we alive to Christ in our natural condition? Then is salvation, new life in Christ, physical or spiritual?
Still asking questions to set a baseline.