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**exOBCstudent** · 04-17-2012, 11:41 AM

(04-17-2012 11:24 AM)Donb123 Wrote: We stand condemned already. When Christ returns it will be in judgement.

The Apostle Paul was speaking of believers in this passage- he always wrote to churches- not random heathens.

Not everyone is a recipient of God's perfect unconditional love.
If you believe the Bible it is pretty clear on this.

God knew Adam and Eve would sin and mankind would fall. I don't know why he would do what he does but then I'm not going to judge nor impugn his character. I just know he loves me and that's enough for me. I can't be bothered to question the lord of the universe on why he does what he does.

A lot of people seem to have some mistaken notion about "all God's children" and think that applies to all of humanity- but it does not. God's children are children by adoption only.

I think he's incredibly loving to bestow grace and mercy upon me when I didn't want it nor deserve it.

First of all, if not everyone is a recipient of God's love then the Bible LIES when it says the "God so loved the WORLD". Then also in that case God IS a respector of persons and you get in through some kind of "buddy system". I don't think you really believe that do you?

Second, adopted children don't choose their PARENTS it's vice-versa. And even if the kid doesn't want their parents who chose them, they can't EVER disown them through adoption. My father spent much of his entire life in adoption homes/foster parents so I've learned something about that situation.

If Christ FIRST loved us AND chose to redeem us then we are His and in His family. If CHRIST chooses whom to impart love to then "whosoever will may come" is also a lie. Right? Huh

TurningIntoDavid · 04-17-2012, 11:50 AM

(04-17-2012 11:24 AM)Donb123 Wrote:
(04-17-2012 07:07 AM)exOBCstudent Wrote: My wife and I discussed these new ideas last night and came to some insteresting points.

- Christ came to the world not to CONDEMN the world but that the world through Him might be saved. Thus His atonement was paid ONCE for all at Calvary.

We stand condemned already. When Christ returns it will be in judgement.

Quote:- What can SEPERATE us from God's love? NOTHING. God IS love. All love comes from God. If hell seperates us from God eternally then His love isn't enough or He is NOT omnipresent or all powerful either.

The Apostle Paul was speaking of believers in this passage- he always wrote to churches- not random heathens.

Quote:- Perfect love casteth out fear. LOVE covers ALL sins. Would perfect, UNCONDITIONAL love be "I'll only love you if you in return love me, otherwise I'll damn you to eternal torments"?

Not everyone is a recipient of God's perfect unconditional love. If you believe the Bible it is pretty clear on this.

Oh for the love of Pete. If I had a nickel for every time someone told me that the Bible was clear on a topic and then didn't quote the Bible after making the statement, I wouldn't be wondering how I'm going to pay to get the clutch in my car fixed right now. Fundy pastors do the same things: "We preach the Bible here, and the Bible is dead clear on xyz issue" and then fail to mention exactly where and how the Bible manages to be so darn clear. But they're right nonetheless!

However, if you want to know exactly what the Bible is clear on regarding this, I would recommend Jesus' Teaching on Hell.

(04-17-2012 11:24 AM)Donb123 Wrote:
Quote:- If God knew from the beginning of creation that some men wouldn't choose Him (and hell is real) then He PURPOSELY designed hell for their eternal suffering. Is that the depths of God's love for mankind? Once again the "I'll only love you if you love me back" mentality.

God knew Adam and Eve would sin and mankind would fall. I don't know why he would do what he does but then I'm not going to judge nor impugn his character. I just know he loves me and that's enough for me. I can't be bothered to question the lord of the universe on why he does what he does.

It's funny, because Abraham could be bothered to question the lord of the universe on why he does what he does. "Far be it from you to do such a thing! Will not the judge of the earth do right?" (Genesis 18:25)

(04-17-2012 11:24 AM)Donb123 Wrote:
Quote:- If Hell is real, then mothers with children and even animals would show more love than Christ appears to. At least many mothers will naturally love their children no matter how much of a mess they make of themselves or how much they "act up". Even a dog will return sometimes and lick the hand of the one who beat him senseless.

A lot of people seem to have some mistaken notion about "all God's children" and think that applies to all of humanity- but it does not. God's children are children by adoption only.

Quote:If the doctrine of eternal punishment is true then the God we think we know isn't as loving as many think. In fact He would seem terrible and downright tyrannical....just like IFB MOGs I know. The more I study in detail eternal punishment the more of the fingerprints of men I see.

I think he's incredibly loving to bestow grace and mercy upon me when I didn't want it nor deserve it.

That's a rather IFB kind of view...

I apologize; I'm new here. Is comparing someone's view to an IFB view the same as a reductio ad hitlerum on here?

(04-17-2012 09:20 AM)TurningIntoDavid Wrote: You've got a long conversation ahead of you, because there are a lot of verses that seem to teach that some people will be in hell forever.

Told you so. Though I wish I was wrong.

Donb123 · 04-17-2012, 12:02 PM

(04-17-2012 11:50 AM)TurningIntoDavid Wrote:
(04-17-2012 11:24 AM)Donb123 Wrote: We stand condemned already. When Christ returns it will be in judgement.

The Apostle Paul was speaking of believers in this passage- he always wrote to churches- not random heathens.

Not everyone is a recipient of God's perfect unconditional love. If you believe the Bible it is pretty clear on this.

Oh for the love of Pete. If I had a nickel for every time someone told me that the Bible was clear on a topic and then didn't quote the Bible after making the statement, I wouldn't be wondering

It's clear to most people who've spent any time in any orthodox church. I just presumed most former fundies would have heard this. In fact I'm pretty sure you could find a few verses so I won't do the work for you unless you really can't.

(04-17-2012 11:24 AM)Donb123 Wrote: God knew Adam and Eve would sin and mankind would fall. I don't know why he would do what he does but then I'm not going to judge nor impugn his character. I just know he loves me and that's enough for me. I can't be bothered to question the lord of the universe on why he does what he does.

Quote:It's funny, because Abraham could be bothered to question the lord of the universe on why he does what he does. "Far be it from you to do such a thing! Will not the judge of the earth do right?" (Genesis 18:25)

I'm not Abraham.

(04-17-2012 11:24 AM)Donb123 Wrote: A lot of people seem to have some mistaken notion about "all God's children" and think that applies to all of humanity- but it does not. God's children are children by adoption only.

I think he's incredibly loving to bestow grace and mercy upon me when I didn't want it nor deserve it.

Quote:That's a rather IFB kind of view...

IFB's call themselves human, christian, americans, people, men, women, etc... so what places folks may have in common isn't exactly relevant as far as I can tell. That little guilt-by-association won't fly amigo.

Quote:I apologize; I'm new here. Is comparing someone's view to an IFB view the same as a reductio ad hitlerum on here?

No, it's just rather IFB'ish to use guilt-by-association Smile

TurningIntoDavid · 04-17-2012, 12:04 PM

(04-17-2012 11:41 AM)exOBCstudent Wrote: First of all, if not everyone is a recipient of God's love then the Bible LIES when it says the "God so loved the WORLD". Then also in that case God IS a respector of persons and you get in through some kind of "buddy system". I don't think you really believe that do you?

Second, adopted children don't choose their PARENTS it's vice-versa. And even if the kid doesn't want their parents who chose them, they can't EVER disown them through adoption. My father spent much of his entire life in adoption homes/foster parents so I've learned something about that situation.

If Christ FIRST loved us AND chose to redeem us then we are His and in His family. If CHRIST chooses whom to impart love to then "whosoever will may come" is also a lie. Right?

I rarely get to see new arguments for Eternal Hell theory. (No offense to anyone on here, but I've been having this debate for almost a year now and most of the objections are standard). These three UR (Ultimate Reconciliation) arguments are all new to me. I'm not sure the last one works though...

it's like i said earlier.

a. God wants to save everyone.
b. God Can save everyone.
c. God isn't going to save everyone.

Calvinists accept b and c, arminians like a and c, and UR's accept a and b (rejecting c).

Donb123 · 04-17-2012, 12:07 PM

(04-17-2012 11:41 AM)exOBCstudent Wrote:
(04-17-2012 11:24 AM)Donb123 Wrote: We stand condemned already. When Christ returns it will be in judgement.

The Apostle Paul was speaking of believers in this passage- he always wrote to churches- not random heathens.

Not everyone is a recipient of God's perfect unconditional love.
If you believe the Bible it is pretty clear on this.

God knew Adam and Eve would sin and mankind would fall. I don't know why he would do what he does but then I'm not going to judge nor impugn his character. I just know he loves me and that's enough for me. I can't be bothered to question the lord of the universe on why he does what he does.

A lot of people seem to have some mistaken notion about "all God's children" and think that applies to all of humanity- but it does not. God's children are children by adoption only.

I think he's incredibly loving to bestow grace and mercy upon me when I didn't want it nor deserve it.
First of all, if not everyone is a recipient of God's love then the Bible LIES when it says the "God so loved the WORLD".

The word "world" there simply means people outside of the nation of Israel. That was the big deal about the Gospel in that it was for Gentiles too. Clearly God does not love the whole world to mean each and every person or some wouldn't be in hell and God wouldn't have explicitly said that he hated Esau.

Quote:Then also in that case God IS a respector of persons and you get
in through some kind of "buddy system". I don't think you really believe that do you?

God is not a "respector of persons" in so far as he doesn't find anything meritorious in any of us to cause him to love us. God does however elect to work within the confines of national Israel in the Old Covenant and within the group of the elect in the New Covenant. God has always chosen. It's what he does.

Quote:Second, adopted children don't choose their PARENTS it's vice-versa. And even if the kid doesn't want their parents who chose them, they can't EVER disown them through adoption. My father spent much of his entire life in adoption homes/foster parents so I've learned something about that situation.

That's right and He doesn't choose everyone. Romans 9 specifically says that some of use are clay that is formed into something good and some are clay that is fit for destruction.

Quote:If Christ FIRST loved us AND chose to redeem us then we are His and in His family. If CHRIST chooses whom to impart love to then "whosoever will may come" is also a lie. Right?

Harmonize "whosoever will" with "all that were appointed to eternal life believed" and it makes sense. Otherwise you just have disjointed jumbled up nonsense.

**JimE** · 04-17-2012, 02:56 PM

A Fundamentalist View of Hell: When a fundy has to admit that he is wrong.

TurningIntoDavid · 04-17-2012, 03:35 PM

(04-17-2012 12:02 PM)Donb123 Wrote:
(04-17-2012 11:50 AM)TurningIntoDavid Wrote: Oh for the love of Pete. If I had a nickel for every time someone told me that the Bible was clear on a topic and then didn't quote the Bible after making the statement, I wouldn't be wondering

It's clear to most people who've spent any time in any orthodox church. I just presumed most former fundies would have heard this. In fact I'm pretty sure you could find a few verses so I won't do the work for you unless you really can't.

I could find them, but it's more fun to play the you-show-me-a-verse-and-i-explain-why-it's-actually-proving-what-i-think-and-not-proving-what-you-think-it's-proving game.

(04-17-2012 12:02 PM)Donb123 Wrote: I'm not Abraham.

orly?

lol.

(04-17-2012 12:02 PM)Donb123 Wrote: IFB's call themselves human, christian, americans, people, men, women, etc... so what places folks may have in common isn't exactly relevant as far as I can tell. That little guilt-by-association won't fly amigo.

Quote:I apologize; I'm new here. Is comparing someone's view to an IFB view the same as a reductio ad hitlerum on here?
No, it's just rather IFB'ish to use guilt-by-association

Well-played, sir. Smile

I feel like I'm being a troll in that statement above, so I'll actually give a few verses.

Jonah 2:2: "Out of the belly of Hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice, earth with her bars was about me forever."
The belly of the big fish = hell.

Ps. 139:8: "If I make my bed in Hell behold thou art there."
God is in hell.

I Sam. 2:6: "The Lord killeth and maketh alive; he bringeth down to the Hell and bringeth up."
So God brings people out of Hell, eh?
(I took the liberty of translating the Hebrew word "Sheol" as "Hell" because every time "Hell" appears in the old testament KJV, it's Sheol)

Gen.37:35: "And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into Hell to my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him."
So Jacob seems like he's going to hell.

In Amos 9:2, the Israelites are trying to escape God's judgment. This one is frickin' hysterical:
“If they dig into Hell, from there shall my hand take them; if they climb up to heaven, from there I will bring them down.
They're trying to escape God's judgment by going to a place of God's judgment. Metaphorically, of course. This is just ridiculous!
(I took the liberty of translating the Hebrew word "Sheol" as "Hell" because every time "Hell" appears in the old testament KJV, it's Sheol)

My personal favorite:
Rev. 20:13-14: "And death and Hell delivered up the dead which were in them, and death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire."
This one turns out to be especially awkward because Hell is often described as the lake of fire. So now we have hell being cast into... Hell. SayWHAT?

Tooktheredpill · 04-17-2012, 03:36 PM

Quote:The word "world" there simply means people outside of the nation of Israel. That was the big deal about the Gospel in that it was for Gentiles too.

The greek word for world is "kos'-mos." It essentially means the universe. http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/...osmos.html

TurningIntoDavid · 04-17-2012, 03:58 PM

(04-17-2012 12:07 PM)Donb123 Wrote:
(04-17-2012 11:41 AM)exOBCstudent Wrote: Second, adopted children don't choose their PARENTS it's vice-versa. And even if the kid doesn't want their parents who chose them, they can't EVER disown them through adoption. My father spent much of his entire life in adoption homes/foster parents so I've learned something about that situation.

That's right and He doesn't choose everyone. Romans 9 specifically says that some of use are clay that is formed into something good and some are clay that is fit for destruction.

The Brick Testament translated that verse and I've been waiting for just such a time as this...

**Presbygirl** · 04-17-2012, 04:01 PM

Whoa,TiD, the verses you quoted above are totally taken out of context.

Jonah 2:2 is metaphorical.
Ps139:8 just means you can't escape Gods presence
I Sam 2:6 the statemtent you bringeth down to the Hell and bringeth up means God has the power to do anything.
Gen 37:35 Huh? that doesn't mean Jacob is going to hell. It means to his own grave, and that he would never stop mourning for him and that he was tortured emotionally.
Amos 9:2 again, God is everywhere and His love for the Israelites is constant.
Rev20:13:14 death and Hell we're delivered and conquered forever. When Death and Hell are delivered into the lake of fire, that means judgement is final. Case closed by God forever. Again metaphorical.