A Fundamentalist View of Hell

[Presbygirl]

(04-16-2012 07:32 PM)pastors wife Wrote:  

(04-16-2012 05:01 PM)TurningIntoDavid Wrote:  Then God condescends to approach them as they are, which is precisely what God in Christ did.

I DO believe that! That's why it's the glorious good news of the Gospel! But I also think that's why they have to believe in Christ.

Yes, exactly. We all deserve hell. I didn't even bring this up since TurningintoDavid said he used to be a Calvinist.
It's all about Jesus. If Jesus didn't die, we'd have no hope for redemption.

[exOBCstudent]

My wife and I discussed these new ideas last night and came to some insteresting points.

- Christ came to the world not to CONDEMN the world but that the world through Him might be saved. Thus His atonement was paid ONCE for all at Calvary.

- What can SEPERATE us from God's love? NOTHING. God IS love. All love comes from God. If hell seperates us from God eternally then His love isn't enough or He is NOT omnipresent or all powerful either.

- Perfect love casteth out fear. LOVE covers ALL sins. Would perfect, UNCONDITIONAL love be "I'll only love you if you in return love me, otherwise I'll damn you to eternal torments"?

- If God knew from the beginning of creation that some men wouldn't choose Him (and hell is real) then He PURPOSELY designed hell for their eternal suffering. Is that the depths of God's love for mankind? Once again the "I'll only love you if you love me back" mentality.

- If Hell is real, then mothers with children and even animals would show more love than Christ appears to. At least many mothers will naturally love their children no matter how much of a mess they make of themselves or how much they "act up". Even a dog will return sometimes and lick the hand of the one who beat him senseless.

If the doctrine of eternal punishment is true then the God we think we know isn't as loving as many think. In fact He would seem terrible and downright tyrannical....just like IFB MOGs I know. The more I study in detail eternal punishment the more of the fingerprints of men I see.

[TurningIntoDavid]

(04-17-2012 06:49 AM)Presbygirl Wrote:  

(04-16-2012 07:32 PM)pastors wife Wrote:  I DO believe that! That's why it's the glorious good news of the Gospel! But I also think that's why they have to believe in Christ.

Yes, exactly. We all deserve hell. I didn't even bring this up since TurningintoDavid said he used to be a Calvinist.
It's all about Jesus. If Jesus didn't die, we'd have no hope for redemption.

*looks genuinely puzzled* What does Calvinism have to do with it? I'm dating a girl who was raised reformed. She's fairly confident that people have to believe in Christ "or else Jesus didn't have to die."

Besides, no worries. I went to a whole bunch of different churches while i was growing up: Independent Bible-believing Fundamentalist Methodist church, Southern Baptist, Pentecostal/Charismatic, Independent Fundamental Bible-believing baptist church, non-denominational, assembly of God...

I picked up something like Calvinism when I read the NLT. I fell in love with Ephesians 1:4-5 "God chose us before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame before Him. In Love He predestined us to adoption as sons. This is what He wanted to do, and it gave Him great pleasure." ...I just missed the "us" because it was always about "us vs them." THEY were the bad ones. I didn't really give a care about them before because I was too scared about my OWN salvation. If I might fry, who gives a care whether you are or not? Selfish view, but surprisingly common. My mom's prayed the sinner's prayer more times than I have, and she's STILL not sure that she's sure that she's sure that she's... ya know.

"Jesus died for everyone" would be good news. If she could bring herself to accept it.

[Presbygirl]

Oh! Sorry for any confusion! *looks surprised and shakes head bc writing is so hard to convey emotions* Just saying that at the end of the day it's all about Jesus and His death which is necessary for our redemption. Not systemic theology!

Edit: The "us versus them" makes me the saddest of all. That's when I knew my Fundy creds were fake, PTL! Even during my "best Fundy years" I couldn't turn my back on someone just because they didn't look or act a certain way. I really enjoy people and learning their stories.

[TurningIntoDavid]

(04-17-2012 07:07 AM)exOBCstudent Wrote:  My wife and I discussed these new ideas last night and came to some insteresting points.

- Christ came to the world not to CONDEMN the world but that the world through Him might be saved. Thus His atonement was paid ONCE for all at Calvary.

- What can SEPERATE us from God's love? NOTHING. God IS love. All love comes from God. If hell seperates us from God eternally then His love isn't enough or He is NOT omnipresent or all powerful either.

- Perfect love casteth out fear. LOVE covers ALL sins. Would perfect, UNCONDITIONAL love be "I'll only love you if you in return love me, otherwise I'll damn you to eternal torments"?

- If God knew from the beginning of creation that some men wouldn't choose Him (and hell is real) then He PURPOSELY designed hell for their eternal suffering. Is that the depths of God's love for mankind? Once again the "I'll only love you if you love me back" mentality.

- If Hell is real, then mothers with children and even animals would show more love than Christ appears to. At least many mothers will naturally love their children no matter how much of a mess they make of themselves or how much they "act up". Even a dog will return sometimes and lick the hand of the one who beat him senseless.

If the doctrine of eternal punishment is true then the God we think we know isn't as loving as many think. In fact He would seem terrible and downright tyrannical....just like IFB MOGs I know. The more I study in detail eternal punishment the more of the fingerprints of men I see.

I'm glad I could help. You've got a long conversation ahead of you, because there are a lot of verses that seem to teach that some people will be in hell forever. This link may help you wrestle with some of them. EDIT: Also here.

A few more verses than the one you mentioned earlier are here and here.

[TurningIntoDavid]

(04-17-2012 08:49 AM)Presbygirl Wrote:  Oh! Sorry for any confusion! *looks surprised and shakes head bc writing is so hard to convey emotions* Just saying that at the end of the day it's all about Jesus and His death which is necessary for our redemption. Not systemic theology!

I totally agree. =) Though you missed His resurrection in your "it's all about" statement, which I'll assume was a typographical error 'cause it's all about that too haha

(04-17-2012 08:49 AM)Presbygirl Wrote:  Edit: The "us versus them" makes me the saddest of all. That's when I knew my Fundy creds were fake, PTL! Even during my "best Fundy years" I couldn't turn my back on someone just because they didn't look or act a certain way. I really enjoy people and learning their stories.

I'm working on the us vs. them stuff. My problem is, I seem to still have a hard time dropping that attitude. ...But now the "them is fundamentalists. Not sure if you're the person who commented on my blog post or not, but figured I'd link it anyway.

[Presbygirl]

(04-17-2012 09:25 AM)TurningIntoDavid Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 08:49 AM)Presbygirl Wrote:  Oh! Sorry for any confusion! *looks surprised and shakes head bc writing is so hard to convey emotions* Just saying that at the end of the day it's all about Jesus and His death which is necessary for our redemption. Not systemic theology!

I totally agree. =) Though you missed His resurrection in your "it's all about" statement, which I'll assume was a typographical error 'cause it's all about that too haha

(04-17-2012 08:49 AM)Presbygirl Wrote:  Edit: The "us versus them" makes me the saddest of all. That's when I knew my Fundy creds were fake, PTL! Even during my "best Fundy years" I couldn't turn my back on someone just because they didn't look or act a certain way. I really enjoy people and learning their stories.

I'm working on the us vs. them stuff. My problem is, I seem to still have a hard time dropping that attitude. ...But now the "them is fundamentalists. Not sure if you're the person who commented on my blog post or not, but figured I'd link it anyway.

touché. Yes, His resurrectin as well! Lol. Nice!

Nope, not me that commented on your blog.
And as far as the the attitude of "us versus" them being towards Fundys now, sure, yeah, I get it. Someone very wise here, someone who owns this blog and these forums reminded us that not everything is bad about Fundys and they aren't wrong about everything either. But many of us here have been rejected by them over the slightest and silliest of things, and that makes it it's very difficult not to want to "throw all the Fundys out with their bath water too!"

[Donb123]

(04-17-2012 07:07 AM)exOBCstudent Wrote:  My wife and I discussed these new ideas last night and came to some insteresting points.

- Christ came to the world not to CONDEMN the world but that the world through Him might be saved. Thus His atonement was paid ONCE for all at Calvary.

We stand condemned already. When Christ returns it will be in judgement.

Quote:- What can SEPERATE us from God's love? NOTHING. God IS love. All love comes from God. If hell seperates us from God eternally then His love isn't enough or He is NOT omnipresent or all powerful either.

The Apostle Paul was speaking of believers in this passage- he always wrote to churches- not random heathens.

Quote:- Perfect love casteth out fear. LOVE covers ALL sins. Would perfect, UNCONDITIONAL love be "I'll only love you if you in return love me, otherwise I'll damn you to eternal torments"?

Not everyone is a recipient of God's perfect unconditional love. If you believe the Bible it is pretty clear on this.

Quote:- If God knew from the beginning of creation that some men wouldn't choose Him (and hell is real) then He PURPOSELY designed hell for their eternal suffering. Is that the depths of God's love for mankind? Once again the "I'll only love you if you love me back" mentality.

God knew Adam and Eve would sin and mankind would fall. I don't know why he would do what he does but then I'm not going to judge nor impugn his character. I just know he loves me and that's enough for me. I can't be bothered to question the lord of the universe on why he does what he does.

Quote:- If Hell is real, then mothers with children and even animals would show more love than Christ appears to. At least many mothers will naturally love their children no matter how much of a mess they make of themselves or how much they "act up". Even a dog will return sometimes and lick the hand of the one who beat him senseless.

A lot of people seem to have some mistaken notion about "all God's children" and think that applies to all of humanity- but it does not. God's children are children by adoption only.

Quote:If the doctrine of eternal punishment is true then the God we think we know isn't as loving as many think. In fact He would seem terrible and downright tyrannical....just like IFB MOGs I know. The more I study in detail eternal punishment the more of the fingerprints of men I see.

I think he's incredibly loving to bestow grace and mercy upon me when I didn't want it nor deserve it.

[dramaturge]

(04-16-2012 12:44 PM)Presbygirl Wrote:  

(04-16-2012 10:49 AM)dramaturge Wrote:  What if Christ's death is indeed the basis for even a universal salvation whether we understand the means or not? Justice would still be served whether we grasp why or how. I think it's just as reasonable to propose that Christ's death accomplished justice for all in a way that God understands and applies as it is to propose that Christ's death only accomplishes applied justice for an individual who accepts it.

p.s. I'm not trying to be belligerent, mostly just using some Socratic method to understand your position and to better understand mine. :-)

So, you assume, that everyone wants heaven? See this is where the rubber meets the road. We are all rebels against God. Chuck total depravity out the window and any combination of redemption is possible. If Love Wins, why not now, instead of later. Why aren't we all loving others now and doing good till Christ comes? I've seen enough examples here on earth, to show that people don't choose to love even their own offspring. Now tell me, how does that work?

P.S. You're fabulous. I get good discussion!

I haven't forgotten about your post. I'm working my way through some thoughts in my response. :-)

[dramaturge]

(04-16-2012 11:37 AM)Donb123 Wrote:  

(04-16-2012 10:49 AM)dramaturge Wrote:  What if Christ's death is indeed the basis for even a universal salvation whether we understand the means or not? Justice would still be served whether we grasp why or how. I think it's just as reasonable to propose that Christ's death accomplished justice for all in a way that God understands and applies as it is to propose that Christ's death only accomplishes applied justice for an individual who accepts it.

That seems like it would be irresistible grace without limited atonement. So instead of changing the heart of a rebellious sinner into one that accepts grace it's applying mercy to everyone even if they don't want it and forcibly changing them into something that can live with God for eternity. Or the alternative would be perhaps raging sinners and homicidal maniacs roaming the new heaven and new earth- which doesn't really sound like paradise at all

I'd say it's part and parcel of every knee bowing and tongue confessing. Seeing/meeting the face of God would be the heart-changing moment, I'd say.