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**Tiarali** · 03-16-2012, 07:15 PM

I'm so sorry redhot. It's so hard.

Harry Seaward · 03-16-2012, 08:22 PM

(03-16-2012 02:43 PM)Persnickety Polecat Wrote: There are a lot of things that I'd try to work through with my husband "for the sake of the kids." But not something like this. Obviously, Redhot's choices are her own business, but a porn addiction is denigrating to her and the children both. If nothing else, she may be able to move out with the kids and then try to work through it (only if he is willing to go through intensive therapy). But I personally would not feel an ounce of guilt "for the kids' sake" for leaving my husband over a porn addiction that left us without intimacy and drove my family into thousands of dollars of debt.

This is all hypothetical because we don't know if Redhot's husband is an addict, but what if your husband was addicted to booze and he spent tens of thousands of dollars on that, and there was a loss of intimacy because he was too soused every night to perform, but when given an ultimatum, he agreed to get into recovery and try to get his life in order? Would you be more agreeable to give him the chance in this case because the addiction was more socially acceptable? That's not really fair, is it?

The "thing" addicts are addicted to is simply a catalyst and the manifestation of their addiction at that time. Without recovery treatment, true addicts always eventually turn to something else.

On a side note, I know people try to make porn out to be cheating, but it really isn't. Ask yourselves honestly if you would rather a) find out that your spouse has been meeting someone for dinner and sex 2 nights a week for 3 months or b) has been looking at porn every day for 3 months. There is your answer. It's not the same thing. Degrading and humiliating? Yeah, probably for most, but on a scale of 1-10, it's a 5 or a 6 when compared equally to a sexual affair.

~~Persnickety Polecat~~ · 03-16-2012, 08:44 PM

(03-16-2012 08:22 PM)Harry Seaward Wrote:
(03-16-2012 02:43 PM)Persnickety Polecat Wrote: There are a lot of things that I'd try to work through with my husband "for the sake of the kids." But not something like this. Obviously, Redhot's choices are her own business, but a porn addiction is denigrating to her and the children both. If nothing else, she may be able to move out with the kids and then try to work through it (only if he is willing to go through intensive therapy). But I personally would not feel an ounce of guilt "for the kids' sake" for leaving my husband over a porn addiction that left us without intimacy and drove my family into thousands of dollars of debt.

This is all hypothetical because we don't know if Redhot's husband is an addict, but what if your husband was addicted to booze and he spent tens of thousands of dollars on that, and there was a loss of intimacy because he was too soused every night to perform, but when given an ultimatum, he agreed to get into recovery and try to get his life in order? Would you be more agreeable to give him the chance in this case because the addiction was more socially acceptable? That's not really fair, is it?

The "thing" addicts are addicted to is simply a catalyst and the manifestation of their addiction at that time. Without recovery treatment, true addicts always eventually turn to something else.

On a side note, I know people try to make porn out to be cheating, but it really isn't. Ask yourselves honestly if you would rather a) find out that your spouse has been meeting someone for dinner and sex 2 nights a week for 3 months or b) has been looking at porn every day for 3 months. There is your answer. It's not the same thing. Degrading and humiliating? Yeah, probably for most, but on a scale of 1-10, it's a 5 or a 6 when compared equally to a sexual affair.

I would leave a partner who was abusing alcohol (or struggling with any other issue) to that degree, too. If he were able to get clean during our separation, then I would reconsider my options at that point, but I would not remain in the same home with him during his recovery. *shrug*

I grew up in an extremely volatile situation, so perhaps I am looking at this from an entirely different pov. But my opinion is that the stable parent OWES the children a safe, protective environment. And a parent who is dealing with an addiction or other dysfunctional issue that is throwing the entire family in turmoil is NOT a safe, protective environment. Continuing to maintain an intact family under tumultuous or unhealthy circumstances -- imho -- is codependent behavior and can be profoundly destructive to the children. YMMV.

I lived that hell, and I would not put my children through it for the world.

**redhot** · 03-16-2012, 09:42 PM

1. I do not have children
2. I do not know if he is an addict, although some months he was spending more than $200 per day.
3. If he is a "sex addict" he should not be turning me down for sex.
4. I still don't know if he had sex with anyone else, although he did admit asking a co-worker and when she refused, he offered to pay her. She still turned him down.
5. Speaking only for myself, I think I would rather that he had been meeting someone, dinner, sex, etc. At least I might understand that there was an emotional connection, mutual attraction, etc. The fact that he chose to engage in live, online chat, where she would perform whatever he told her to do, to me seems pretty one-sided and selfish, especially since I was "right there" all along, and he chose them over me.
6. Knowing that he has been doing this for almost 2 years, I can't imagine that I could ever be with him and feel like he was not comparing me to "LOVES 2 69". I'm not a prude, and am pretty willing to... whatever, but whatever we do should be out of mutual desire, not because he made her do it and wants to try it with me.
7. I'm curious how others, particularly women, feel about whether porn (live chat, not a few dirty magazines) is as bad/worse/better than an actual physical affair.

sandee · 03-16-2012, 09:45 PM

(03-16-2012 08:22 PM)Harry Seaward Wrote: On a side note, I know people try to make porn out to be cheating, but it really isn't. Ask yourselves honestly if you would rather a) find out that your spouse has been meeting someone for dinner and sex 2 nights a week for 3 months or b) has been looking at porn every day for 3 months. There is your answer. It's not the same thing. Degrading and humiliating? Yeah, probably for most, but on a scale of 1-10, it's a 5 or a 6 when compared equally to a sexual affair.

How about would I rather my spouse (1) have a one night stand or (2) drain my family financially and emotionally with years of daily porn usage?

A one night stand is not the same as an ongoing affair is not the same as porn usage- yet they are all cheating.

notdrinkingthekoolaid · 03-16-2012, 10:28 PM

(03-16-2012 09:42 PM)redhot Wrote: 7. I'm curious how others, particularly women, feel about whether porn (live chat, not a few dirty magazines) is as bad/worse/better than an actual physical affair.

I'm a woman, married 15 years and have 3 kids. (Just so you know where I'm coming from and realize I'm typing from my own point of view and no one else's.) I hate it when we put "points" on sin, making one worse than another. Porn or an affair are equally damaging to a marriage in that they both break a certain trust placed in a spouse. I know 2 couples personally that have come back from either an affair or porn addictions. The damage was great and the work to stay together was huge. But they BOTH had to be willing to make changes and desire to fix what was so broken in their relationships. It hasn't been easy for either one and I know that the changes have sometimes been 1 step forward 2 steps back.

I'm NOT saying that you should stay with your husband. Clearly there is a huge issue with the porn but also the financial infidelity. I'm simply saying that porn and/or affairs are equally incredibly damaging and take a mountain of work to overcome.

Harry Seaward · 03-16-2012, 10:32 PM

(03-16-2012 08:44 PM)Persnickety Polecat Wrote: I would leave a partner who was abusing alcohol (or struggling with any other issue) to that degree, too. If he were able to get clean during our separation, then I would reconsider my options at that point, but I would not remain in the same home with him during his recovery. *shrug*

I grew up in an extremely volatile situation, so perhaps I am looking at this from an entirely different pov. But my opinion is that the stable parent OWES the children a safe, protective environment. And a parent who is dealing with an addiction or other dysfunctional issue that is throwing the entire family in turmoil is NOT a safe, protective environment. Continuing to maintain an intact family under tumultuous or unhealthy circumstances -- imho -- is codependent behavior and can be profoundly destructive to the children. YMMV.

I lived that hell, and I would not put my children through it for the world.

I completely agree with all of this. When someone says "leave", that sounds like divorce language to me so maybe that's where I'm losing people. To be clear, I would never advocate for staying in the home during the turmoil. I was simply posing the question that if someone wants to change, and seems to be taking steps in that direction, why the hurry to get a divorce? What opportunities are going to pass you by in the next 6 months that are more important than your marriage? Especially (like to a power of 10) when kids are involved?

Harry Seaward · 03-16-2012, 10:56 PM

(03-16-2012 09:42 PM)redhot Wrote: 3. If he is a "sex addict" he should not be turning me down for sex.

You're confusing addiction with compulsion. Addiction is defined by consequences; compulsion is defined by actions. Addicts don't always act out at every opportunity. Compulsives almost always do. We've all met our fair share of weekend alcoholics. They don't drink during the week, have decent jobs and to most people, seem to function in society, but when they do drink, take cover. I had a friend in college that only drank 3 or 4 times a year, but every time she did, she would end up getting a DUI. She drank in spite of the consequences and was thus, by definition, an addict.

Harry Seaward · 03-16-2012, 11:18 PM

(03-16-2012 09:45 PM)sandee Wrote: How about would I rather my spouse (1) have a one night stand or (2) drain my family financially and emotionally with years of daily porn usage?

A one night stand is not the same as an ongoing affair is not the same as porn usage- yet they are all cheating.

Or how about this: Would you rather live a long and happy life or get run over by a truck tomorrow?

We could play "would you rather" all night long but it's a pointless discussion if your two choices are from opposite ends of the spectrum. You have to pick things that are somewhat close.

What is your definition of cheating that allows porn to fall into that category?

Harry Seaward · (This post was last modified: 03-17-2012 12:13 AM by Harry Seaward.)

(03-16-2012 10:28 PM)notdrinkingthekoolaid Wrote: I'm a woman, married 15 years and have 3 kids. (Just so you know where I'm coming from and realize I'm typing from my own point of view and no one else's.) I hate it when we put "points" on sin, making one worse than another. Porn or an affair are equally damaging to a marriage in that they both break a certain trust placed in a spouse. I know 2 couples personally that have come back from either an affair or porn addictions. The damage was great and the work to stay together was huge. But they BOTH had to be willing to make changes and desire to fix what was so broken in their relationships. It hasn't been easy for either one and I know that the changes have sometimes been 1 step forward 2 steps back.

I'm NOT saying that you should stay with your husband. Clearly there is a huge issue with the porn but also the financial infidelity. I'm simply saying that porn and/or affairs are equally incredibly damaging and take a mountain of work to overcome.

You can't be serious about this. All of society puts points on "sin". There is clearly a distinction between committing a murder you plotted for 6 months and reactively beating to death a man that raped your daughter. They are both crimes, but one you go away for the rest of your life and the other you're out in a couple of years on good behavior. If you claim these are the same "sin", you're either stupid or a liar.

Just like looking at porn once is not the same the same "sin" as having sex with your wife's best friend once.

This is probably a topic for another thread, but where does that notion of "all sin is the same" come from, by the way? That was something I heard all throughout my upbringing and I never heard anyone ever explain it satisfactorily. God himself has some sort of twisted rating scale. Lot offered his daughters to a mob of homosexuals, hoping they would rape them instead of his house guests. I have to guess that since the homosexuals didn't take him up on the offer, God didn't find him guilty of child endangerment? And then his wife was turned to salt for looking over her shoulder yet later that same night, Lot was handsomely rewarded with a pair of kids for having sex with both of his daughters. Bravo! I guess the rating scale is adjusted based on whether the accused has a penis or not. Oh wait, Sodom was destroyed and that was predominately populated by penises. Nope, I don't see the logic then.