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Tooktheredpill · 02-23-2012, 04:55 AM

Quote:I'm no atheist, but the late Hitchens was a great writer.

hmm. Maybe God is Not Great wasn't his best work...?

Quote:It sounds like you are on the road to being convinced, and you want to be convinced.

Nah. I try to question my beliefs and my doubts.

Quote:The atheist apologentsia will end up just coming off as preachy as any fundamentalist.

That's how I felt about God is Not Great...

squiz · (This post was last modified: 03-13-2012 03:41 AM by squiz.)

Perhaps you could check John Loftus' list at the debunking christianity challenge.
I haven't read all of these by any means, as it is all water under the bridge with me and I get a bit tired of this stuff myself.

Another book that I did read was Richard Carrier's "Sense and Goodness without God" Although perhaps heavy-going, it attempts to present a complete naturalistic worldview and to offers an philosophical answer to the theistic slander that atheist life is meaningless.

You might also want to look at some older classics, like
Bertrand Russell "Why I am not a Christian"

Or Thomas Paine's Age of Reason:
http://www.infidels.org/library/historic...mas_paine/
(Ok Thomas Paine was a Deist, but I am very "broad church").

In fact there is a wealth of articles, old and new, at http://www.infidels.org/library/. Take your pick.

There are a few blogs, that I would also check out.
Former fundy offers a rare theological perspective.
http://commonsenseatheism.com was quite good, if you are into philosophy.
or John Loftus (see above).

If you are interested in Creation/Evolution, check out
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html
or just hang out at the Evolution/Creation subform at http://www.freeratio.org.

I assume most of you here are more or less like I was. I had been heavily indoctrinated since earliest childhood. Every theological question had a ready answer. Every time a question came, the apologetic wall was built higher. You might think as I did, that you are not like others, that your faith is a rational faith, but the huge structure of complicated theology and apologetics that resulted was really built on sand (to borrow a biblical theme). In my case, the trigger was a personal crisis that triggered the whole edifice to collapse and not through studying the arguments above - that came later. I suspect that it is rare for someone to be able to de-programme themselves just through reading, if there hasn't already been a bit of a crisis of faith along the way beforehand.

What I really recommend though, whatever you end up believing, is just taking a break from it all. There is nothing so liberating as being able to go through life without constantly thinking about God and religion. And if there is a God, I am sure he doesn't mind.

D-Stan · (This post was last modified: 03-13-2012 06:14 AM by D-Stan.)

(03-12-2012 01:55 PM)squiz Wrote: Perhaps you could check John Loftus' list at the debunking christianity challenge.
I haven't read all of these by any means, as it is all water under the bridge with me and I get a bit tired of this stuff myself.

Another book that I did read was Richard Carrier's "Sense and Goodness without God" Although perhaps heavy-going, it attempts to present a complete naturalistic worldview and to offers an philosophical answer to the theistic slander that atheist life is meaningless.

You might also want to look at some older classics, like
Bertrand Russell "Why I am not a Christian"

Or Thomas Paine's Age of Reason:
http://www.infidels.org/library/historic...mas_paine/
(Ok Thomas Paine was a Deist, but I am very "broad church").

In fact there is a wealth of articles, old and new, at http://www.infidels.org/library/. Take your pick.

There are a few blogs, that I would also check out.
Former fundy offers a rare theological perspective.
http://commonsenseatheism.com was quite good, if you are into philosophy.
or John Loftus (see above).

If you are interested in Creation/Evolution, check out
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html
or just hang out at the Evolution/Creation subform at http://www.freeratio.org.

I assume most of you here are more or less like I was. I had been heavily indoctrinated since earliest childhood. Every theological question had a ready answer. Every time a question came, the apologetic wall was built higher. You might think as I did, that you are not like others, that your faith is a rational faith, but the huge structure of complicated theology and apologetics that resulted was really built on sand (to borrow a biblical theme). In my case, the trigger was a personal crisis that triggered the whole edifice to collapse and not through studying the arguments above - that came later. I suspect that it is rare for someone to be able to de-programme themselves just through reading, if there hasn't already been a bit of a crisis of faith along the way beforehand.

What I really recommend though, whatever you end up believing, is just taking a break from it all. There is nothing so liberating as being able to go through life without constantly thinking about God and religion. And if there is a God, I am sure he doesn't mind.

I can somewhat understand. Though, I do not profess to totally understand. I have questioned my faith a lot, but I still believe mainly because of my personal experiences. I have not read the book that you posted a link to which is called Sense and Goodness without God, but I can't possibly see how life would have any real meaning if God did not exist. I would never say that an atheist's life is meaningless, but I can't see anything but meaninglessness, in the ultimate sense, inherent in that worldview. I do not mean to denigrate you. I have come really close to not believing. Peace.

dthatcher · 03-13-2012, 09:00 AM

You say that life without God is meaningless, but when things make no sense in spite of God, you are back at the meaninglessness that God is supposed to help you avoid. Of course, most believers at this point come up with all sorts of reasons why God is still God. At some point, though, you recognize this thinking for the "echo chamber" it is. We are limited to our human perceptual faculties. God knows this. Long-term absence from our perception is abandonment. You say He is trying to test our faith. Well how about I go to work one morning and leave a letter to my wife explaining I will be gone for an indeterminate period of time, make no further contact with her, then come back 15 years later and expect to be with my wife again. I mean, I just wanted to see if she would be faithful. Likely she has moved. Also likely she has successfully filed for divorce on grounds of abandonment and found someone else. Highly unlikely that she wants anything to do with me again.

Tooktheredpill · 03-13-2012, 09:28 AM

@ squiz: Thanks for the suggestions. I have read one book on the Debunking list already. I'd really like to read The Human Faces of God in the future, too.

I'm currently reading this book (it's recommended by Loftus).

D-Stan · 03-13-2012, 11:48 AM

(03-13-2012 09:00 AM)dthatcher Wrote: You say that life without God is meaningless, but when things make no sense in spite of God, you are back at the meaninglessness that God is supposed to help you avoid. Of course, most believers at this point come up with all sorts of reasons why God is still God. At some point, though, you recognize this thinking for the "echo chamber" it is. We are limited to our human perceptual faculties. God knows this. Long-term absence from our perception is abandonment. You say He is trying to test our faith. Well how about I go to work one morning and leave a letter to my wife explaining I will be gone for an indeterminate period of time, make no further contact with her, then come back 15 years later and expect to be with my wife again. I mean, I just wanted to see if she would be faithful. Likely she has moved. Also likely she has successfully filed for divorce on grounds of abandonment and found someone else. Highly unlikely that she wants anything to do with me again.

All I said was that if there is no God, then there is no ultimate meaning to life. I did not make many of the points that you are contesting. I don't feel like God leaves us. I have felt God many times in my life. Let me be clear: I am not saying that an atheist's life is meaningless, but rather that I can't find any purpose inherent in that worldview. Most atheists agree that there is no purpose to the universe. It just is. It does not have to do with rather God helps me avoid feelings of meaningless. I can feel like things are meaningless, and I can feel that they have purpose. That has no bearing on what is ultimately true. Peace.

squiz · 03-13-2012, 12:11 PM

(03-13-2012 05:32 AM)D-Stan Wrote: I can somewhat understand. Though, I do not profess to totally understand. I have questioned my faith a lot, but I still believe mainly because of my personal experiences. I have not read the book that you posted a link to which is called Sense and Goodness without God, but I can't possibly see how life would have any real meaning if God did not exist. I would never say that an atheist's life is meaningless, but I can't see anything but meaninglessness, in the ultimate sense, inherent in that worldview. I do not mean to denigrate you. I have come really close to not believing. Peace.

Well I am not so convinced that theism really brings so much more meaning to life either. I mean, even if you are part of some great cosmic plan, it also amounts to the same in the end, just for a longer period of time. Even if you will be concious for eternity, together with God - is that really meaningful?

On the other hand, I can see how admitting that there is no God can seem pretty bleak when you are not used to it and when you have been told all your life how bleak it must be. Interestingly, people I know who were brought up as atheists, don't seem to feel this. Without being able climb into their heads, I would say that they appear just as content and balanced (if not more so) than the believers I know. Myself, I felt this bleakness when I first deconverted 25 years ago, but for me it was more important to be honest to myself, than to manufacture a sense of meaning.

Thanks, btw, for your kind words. I felt no denigration. People should be able to say their piece in a reasonable way without fear of others taking offence. I don't need anyone to convert to full atheism or agnosticism, nor do I expect to. I don't have all the answers by any means. It just irritates me when others kid themselves that they do.

D-Stan · 03-13-2012, 12:31 PM

(03-13-2012 12:11 PM)squiz Wrote:
(03-13-2012 05:32 AM)D-Stan Wrote: I can somewhat understand. Though, I do not profess to totally understand. I have questioned my faith a lot, but I still believe mainly because of my personal experiences. I have not read the book that you posted a link to which is called Sense and Goodness without God, but I can't possibly see how life would have any real meaning if God did not exist. I would never say that an atheist's life is meaningless, but I can't see anything but meaninglessness, in the ultimate sense, inherent in that worldview. I do not mean to denigrate you. I have come really close to not believing. Peace.
Well I am not so convinced that theism really brings so much more meaning to life either. I mean, even if you are part of some great cosmic plan, it also amounts to the same in the end, just for a longer period of time. Even if you will be concious for eternity, together with God - is that really meaningful?

On the other hand, I can see how admitting that there is no God can seem pretty bleak when you are not used to it and when you have been told all your life how bleak it must be. Interestingly, people I know who were brought up as atheists, don't seem to feel this. Without being able climb into their heads, I would say that they appear just as content and balanced (if not more so) than the believers I know. Myself, I felt this bleakness when I first deconverted 25 years ago, but for me it was more important to be honest to myself, than to manufacture a sense of meaning.

Thanks, btw, for your kind words. I felt no denigration. People should be able to say their piece in a reasonable way without fear of others taking offence. I don't need anyone to convert to full atheism or agnosticism, nor do I expect to. I don't have all the answers by any means. It just irritates me when others kid themselves that they do.

No problem man. I'm glad we can have this conversation. We should all seek to find answers, and to be humble in the process. Obviously, our views are just different. My view on God giving life purpose isn't just based on the belief that I'm going to be with Him, or that if the converse is true then the universe is just going to end in death. Though, the latter does seem to me to be a rather bleak picture(just my opinion). Also, though, I believe that either God created us(which would mean that He intended there to be a purpose because anything created by an intelligent mind mostly is intended to serve some sort of purpose and function), or that the universe created us with no mind behind it. If the latter is true, then I can't really see any rhyme or reason to that. Maybe there is an unknown third option, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Either way, questions of purpose and meaning are very important, and I think, possibly, that is where we can agree. May you take care.

lucrezaborgia · 03-14-2012, 08:36 PM

Ultimately, I don't think anyone can make a air-tight case that there is no god. However, if there is a god, is he the Christian god? I question that a lot. To me, if there is a god, there is no way he can be Christian.

Have you read stuff from other religions? I think some very interesting things can be read in the philosophies/religions of the East.

That'sWhatItSays · 03-15-2012, 10:12 AM

I was transformed by God's Spirit when I turned 21, but it all still had to make sense....so I kept reading to figure out what it was all about. I read Dawkins, Stephen Jay Gould, and Isaac Asimov, among others. I wasn't convinced by any of them, but I remember being particularly perplexed at Asimov's commentary on the Bible. It was shockingly unfair.

It seems nowadays, scientists aren't willing to go as far as their forebears in proclaiming that there simply is no God. They allow for the "1%" chance that there is.