Are fundies mean because the God they worship is mean?

[pastor's wife]

I saw this quote posted on facebook today:

"We will *be* like what we think our G/god is like. We cannot avoid being recreated in the image of what it is we worship. ---SBF"

I've often been baffled at the cold-heartedness of some fundies toward their children and grandchildren, but perhaps this is just a result of the type of God they worship. He is harsh and punative, exacting yet distant, quick to anger and rather slow to forgive. You'd better tread lightly around Him because you never know what will set Him off. Mess with Him and you're in for a world of hurt.

Their God seems to know little of mercy or patience. Their God prefers judgment over grace.

So is it any wonder that they themselves are harsh, impatient, and angry people too? Or if of a calmer temperament, they seem to be rather unemotional, unmoved by sadness or joy, responding to stories of tragedies with only a raised eyebrow and a comment like, "That's what happens when you [insert wrong behavior here: "don't go to church," "have sex outside of marriage", "stay out late partying", etc.].

(And, yes, I do know some nice fundies, but there's sure a lot of the types I describe above.)

[Tiarali]

"Nice" people (and some of them are genuinely nice, there are some that I love although I cannot trust) will do almost anything, no matter how heinous, if they are made to believe that they are doing it for good.

There was actually an experiment done on this issue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

So, fundies act in a way that they believe their God expects them to act, even when it conflicts with their internal conscience. For some of us, the conscience is eventually able to break free - but at what cost?

Maybe the impatience and anger isn't so much a mirroring of their god, but a side-effect of the conflict that is within. Or, perhaps, a mask to hide the conflict behind - even from themselves, because doubt is dangerous.

[exOBCstudent]

I think your viewpoint here makes a lot of sense. I also believe that we become like those we hang around with most often. This is why I believe we see so many of these victims becoming like their offenders in the church system. I'm amazed at how much I resembled my MOGs back in my fundy days.

[Scorpio]

(03-05-2012 10:07 AM)tiarali Wrote:  There was actually an experiment done on this issue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

And for those of you who may have not seen it, here ya go:

[Presbygirl]

There's no safety in confession in the IFB world. You can be guilty of some small sins, but not the biggies. The cudgel they use and abuse to keep people in line is big and applied liberally which in turn keeps us from repenting because there will ALWAYS be a man made penalty to pay instead of showing the sinner that the real penalty is not having a relationship with Christ. And then to the believer, they shower them with guilt and phrases like a "good Christian would never do ____." The truth is, that I am capable of committing the most heinous of sins!! Instead of repeating over and again that I am a needy, desperate, sinner who could run to God who always stands ready to forgive; I stood ready like the most Giant Pharisee saying "thank God I am not like those people!" I was always afraid to confess, because what I had done was just too big for God. I believed for a long time that God didn't want to forgive me, He wanted ME to pay first. So crazy. That mindset sets up to be "judge and jury" of others.

"Their God" is mean and small.

[Scorpio]

(03-05-2012 10:04 AM)pastors wife Wrote:  "We will *be* like what we think our G/god is like.

With fundies, I think the reverse is also true. Their God is who they want him to be. Their God only pays attention to your church attendance, your tithing record, how many bible verse you have memorized, how many times you have gone out soul-winning, what music you listen to, what clothes you wear and how close a man's hair is to his collar. They are not truly graceful and merciful, therefore neither is their God.

[beensetfree]

(03-05-2012 10:31 AM)Presbygirl Wrote:  There's no safety in confession in the IFB world. You can be guilty of some small sins, but not the biggies. The cudgel they use and abuse to keep people in line is big and applied liberally which in turn keeps us from repenting because there will ALWAYS be a man made penalty to pay instead of showing the sinner that the real penalty is not having a relationship with Christ. And then to the believer, they shower them with guilt and phrases like a "good Christian would never do ____." The truth is, that I am capable of committing the most heinous of sins!! Instead of repeating over and again that I am a needy, desperate, sinner who could run to God who always stands ready to forgive; I stood ready like the most Giant Pharisee saying "thank God I am not like those people!" I was always afraid to confess, because what I had done was just too big for God. I believed for a long time that God didn't want to forgive me, He wanted ME to pay first. So crazy. That mindset sets up to be "judge and jury" of others.

"Their God" is mean and small.

A week after my daughter was baptized she was taken to task for doing something "she really shouldn't do in church, she should know better." And when she repeated a word she'd heard at school I heard at church," a mature Christian wouldn't use that word!" She's literally a child who is learning. Talk about starting young with bad doctrine. I took her home explained the problems and gave her the Gospel. I always do when she confesses to me.
But this is the same tactic they use to cull adults into behavior modification. They may even use terms like "by the Spirit's power" or "heart change" or something else that implies it's sanctification but they mostly use tactics that will ONLY produce behavioral modification not true Christian growth. We're supposed to "grow in the grace and knowledge of the LORD Jesus Christ". If they piecemeal grace or hold it just out of reach or only for those who haven't sinned too much... that's not the Gospel.

(03-05-2012 10:31 AM)Presbygirl Wrote:  The truth is, that I am capable of committing the most heinous of sins!! Instead of repeating over and again that I am a needy, desperate, sinner who could run to God who always stands ready to forgive; I stood ready like the most Giant Pharisee saying "thank God I am not like those people!" I was always afraid to confess, because what I had done was just too big for God.

And when they get frustrated by people still sinning their default response is to wonder why. In my experience the preaching doesn't actually serve it's proper function and the practice leads out from it. I still think as much as they rail against sin they don't really get how deep it is. Again how often they ignore the Gospel is for Christians and it would also allow us to grow together instead of trying to measure each other's progress.

But if you can't actually confess to sinning, not really, then how can you really understand forgiveness?

[Presbygirl]

(03-05-2012 12:37 PM)beensetfree Wrote:  

(03-05-2012 10:31 AM)Presbygirl Wrote:  There's no safety in confession in the IFB world. You can be guilty of some small sins, but not the biggies. The cudgel they use and abuse to keep people in line is big and applied liberally which in turn keeps us from repenting because there will ALWAYS be a man made penalty to pay instead of showing the sinner that the real penalty is not having a relationship with Christ. And then to the believer, they shower them with guilt and phrases like a "good Christian would never do ____." The truth is, that I am capable of committing the most heinous of sins!! Instead of repeating over and again that I am a needy, desperate, sinner who could run to God who always stands ready to forgive; I stood ready like the most Giant Pharisee saying "thank God I am not like those people!" I was always afraid to confess, because what I had done was just too big for God. I believed for a long time that God didn't want to forgive me, He wanted ME to pay first. So crazy. That mindset sets up to be "judge and jury" of others.

"Their God" is mean and small.

A week after my daughter was baptized she was taken to task for doing something "she really shouldn't do in church, she should know better." And when she repeated a word she'd heard at school I heard at church," a mature Christian wouldn't use that word!" She's literally a child who is learning. Talk about starting young with bad doctrine. I took her home explained the problems and gave her the Gospel. I always do when she confesses to me.
But this is the same tactic they use to cull adults into behavior modification. They may even use terms like "by the Spirit's power" or "heart change" or something else that implies it's sanctification but they mostly use tactics that will ONLY produce behavioral modification not true Christian growth. We're supposed to "grow in the grace and knowledge of the LORD Jesus Christ". If they piecemeal grace or hold it just out of reach or only for those who haven't sinned too much... that's not the Gospel.

(03-05-2012 10:31 AM)Presbygirl Wrote:  The truth is, that I am capable of committing the most heinous of sins!! Instead of repeating over and again that I am a needy, desperate, sinner who could run to God who always stands ready to forgive; I stood ready like the most Giant Pharisee saying "thank God I am not like those people!" I was always afraid to confess, because what I had done was just too big for God.

And when they get frustrated by people still sinning their default response is to wonder why. In my experience the preaching doesn't actually serve it's proper function and the practice leads out from it. I still think as much as they rail against sin they don't really get how deep it is. Again how often they ignore the Gospel is for Christians and it would also allow us to grow together instead of trying to measure each other's progress.

But if you can't actually confess to sinning, not really, then how can you really understand forgiveness?

Yes, so true, "how often they ignore the Gospel" and forget that it is for all of us, believer and non-believer. I, Presbygirl, NEED the Gospel every day.

Good for you for walking towards Jesus with your daughter by allowing her to confess, repent and be restored. It's what we do with our children and others until Christ comes and restores us for eternity!

[Don]

Quote:And when they get frustrated by people still sinning their default response is to wonder why. In my experience the preaching doesn't actually serve it's proper function and the practice leads out from it. I still think as much as they rail against sin they don't really get how deep it is. Again how often they ignore the Gospel is for Christians and it would also allow us to grow together instead of trying to measure each other's progress.

But if you can't actually confess to sinning, not really, then how can you really understand forgiveness?

beensetfree touches on a phenomenon that I call the Billy Sunday effect.
The IFB is especially prone to major on the appearance of sin. The outward manifestations rather than the inward, heart issues. Billy Sunday was always outwardly battling the devil. It was all show and presentation but Billy really didn't preach sin as it is presented in scripture. He presented sin as something you can fight against and overcome by your own goodness rather than it being a problem of one's own wicked heart which can only be overcome by God's Grace.

What we see in the IFB is a god that is so weak that he needs our help to battle sin, and keep ourselves pure. A god who needs permission to work in someone's life... a god of the imagination. Therefore this god has to bluster and fume in order to keep his sheep and goats in line. It is a god made in the image of, "This is how god would act if I were god."

[notdrinkingthekoolaid]

I was just talking about this with one of our pastors recently. IFB demanded perfection real or imagined. Since it was attainable if you followed the rules (whatever they were), then there was no room for grace and ultimately no need for a Savior. Of course, fundies would say they don't act that way, but that's the logical end to their actions.