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Tchaiko · (This post was last modified: 01-22-2012 11:53 PM by Tchaiko.)

(01-22-2012 08:52 AM)greg Wrote: "I don't care what the Greek word meant" ........this is a phrase never uttered by me.

"Only you forget that the bible was first in Greek" ........With this statement you demonstrate your lack of knowledge about our bible and how it came to be, and that is why folks like Ricardo, that have a degree of intelligence can lead folks like yourself astray. The OT was written in Hebrew, the NT for the most part was written in Greek, with just abit of Aramaic. Jesus and the apostles spoke Aramaic, Matthew being the exception, as a govt official he probably spoke Greek as well as Aramaic.

Ricardo and his "malakos" demonstrate not how "different" or hard it is to translate (btw translation work is difficult) but how extremely reliable our good translations are, now I will grant you some in his list of translations were not so good, but even those that aren't so good denote "sexual perversness."

How bout I suggest something different? Are you a christian? Does the Spirit of God reside inside of you? And do you consider the bible as the Word of God? If not, this ain't probably gonna help you. I believe in a powerful, living God that answers the prayers of his people. Go to Him humbly, and throw all of these questions on Him and allow Him to speak to you about these matters through His Spirit. The Holy Spirit resides in every single one of His children, again no ambiguity here at all,

"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." Romans 8:9

I hate no one, but that does not mean I will not share "hard" truths with you. The Word is a double-edged sword, living and powerful, the same word that shapes/chastens you does the very same thing to me. But remember "Whom the Lord loves them he also chastens/ corrects" This is actually good, it's an evidence/demonstration that we are saved.

I send thoughts and prayers of grace hope and peace to you!

1.) You never said that exact phrase, no. However, you did dismiss Ricardo's entire post without disproving any of it. That would indicate that you don't care.

2.) I know what the Bible was written in. We were discussing a Greek word. I was merely highlighting that the verse in question was not originally in English. You also conveniently missed my point that I don't get my doctrinal standings from this forum. I would think you would be more worried about the Episcopal Church influencing me than some guy named Ricardo on a forum somewhere.

3.) There's a big difference between "sexual perverseness" and "feminine."

4.) I am a Christian. And, forgive me if I'm missing something obvious here, but, you seem to indicate that I *haven't* sought God's guidance to get where I am. I assure you that I have. I prayed long and hard and studied the Bible more than I had for anything else in my life. Is "Christian liberty" only applicable if I agree with you??

5.) Very true. I love that verse.

6.) Thank you for your concern. However, I must say that I would take these moments of concern a bit more seriously if you were actually interested in listening to other viewpoints than your own.

7.) The same to you.

Tchaiko · 01-22-2012, 11:49 PM

(01-22-2012 02:31 PM)greg Wrote: I seriously hope you don't search for fault in everything your friends say like you do to me.

. . . .

May I have a bit of grace and patience please?

Were we just having a friendly conversation of small talk or gardening or anything normal, you wouldn't be cross-examined at all. But when you come into a debate, you need to understand, as the cliche goes, that everything you say can and will be used against you. If your arguments have holes, we will do everything possible to find them and point them out.

And we might ask for the same thing. With respect, you can't attack our heart-felt convictions every time you speak and then be shocked when you think we don't have patience with you or give you the grace that you feel you deserve.

greg · 01-23-2012, 09:33 AM

(01-22-2012 11:49 PM)Tchaiko Wrote:
(01-22-2012 02:31 PM)greg Wrote: I seriously hope you don't search for fault in everything your friends say like you do to me.

. . . .

May I have a bit of grace and patience please?

Were we just having a friendly conversation of small talk or gardening or anything normal, you wouldn't be cross-examined at all. But when you come into a debate, you need to understand, as the cliche goes, that everything you say can and will be used against you. If your arguments have holes, we will do everything possible to find them and point them out.

And we might ask for the same thing. With respect, you can't attack our heart-felt convictions every time you speak and then be shocked when you think we don't have patience with you or give you the grace that you feel you deserve.

The folks that yell the loudest about tolerance are usually the most intolerant folks around.

greg · 01-23-2012, 09:53 AM

I think I've been accused twice now of questioning Ricardo's salvation. I don't recall ever doing such a thing. As I sit here writing this I consider Ricardo to be a christian brother that I happen to disagree with very much, so I would find it hard to believe that I would have questioned his salvation. I looked back over this thread and can find no such accusations.

The teaching of the bible regarding the wickedness/sinfulness of homosexuality is clear, its as clear as the teaching against adultery, murder, etc. I can only imagine if I "thought" I was a homosexual, and trying to rationalize the bible's teaching with my "lifestyle" how difficult that would make my life. I would probably be as "defensive" as some of the homosexuals that post here. But the good news is that God loves you very much, He sent His Son to die for these very sins, but please don't step on this wonderful gift, and try to "act" as though your sins are Ok with God, they are not. God loves you right where you are, but He doesn't want you to stay there.

JLL · 01-23-2012, 11:55 AM

I've never understood why homosexuality is the "sin" that seems to bother people the most. Sometimes I think religious folks would have a better opinion of a murderer or a warmonger than they would of two gay people in a committed relationship. It just seems like we are viewed as the ultimate evil (well, us and abortion doctors). I wonder why...

Tchaiko · 01-23-2012, 12:38 PM

Greg, with respect, you have answered none of the points that I, or anyone else, brought up. I've known for a while that you are not interested in a reasonable discussion, but I hoped that maybe if I took it point by point you would either give more explanation for your beliefs or look at them logically.

There were, as I saw it, three possibilities.

1.) You still believe what you do, so you have an answer to every point that Ricardo, I, and others have brought up,

2.) You know that you logically cannot defend your position, but you believe it wholeheartedly anyways, or

3.) You refuse to even consider the points raised because you're certain that they cannot be right.

Well, I believe that we can eliminate the first possibility, since you certainly would have offered your defense by now. Instead, you posted the exact same thing you post every time the subject is brought up. I'm not sure which of the others is right, but both of them are very fallacious. If it's the second, nothing I can say will help anything. If it's the third, I would direct you to the first three verses of I John 4. How can you try the spirits if you don't even hear what they have to say?

Tchaiko · 01-23-2012, 12:45 PM

(01-23-2012 09:33 AM)greg Wrote: The folks that yell the loudest about tolerance are usually the most intolerant folks around.

I wasn't the one who asked for "grace and patience." If I had, your statement would be valid. I accept that you don't agree with me, Diachenko, JLL, Jenni, or any other posters who are gay. What I cannot accept is that someone can have logic presented to him on a silver platter as you have had and refuse to consider it. If you thought it over and have a reasonable answer, so be it. I wish you well. But I cannot accept that you are intolerant without making any effort to even consider why the other side feels as it does. I don't ask for tolerance. You be as intolerant as you please. But be intolerant because you have refuted our arguments, not because you won't even look at them.

**myotch** · (This post was last modified: 01-23-2012 02:16 PM by myotch.)

I doubt, from year 500AD to 1960AD there was a major delineation between the terms "homosexual", "effeminate", "male prostitute", and "pervert" when applied to a single word in ancient text.

Arguing the different description of the word in question is like arguing the modern meaning of "twink", "bear", "queen", and "b-boy", when the common theme through the words is "homosexual".

This is beside the point. Can a Christian be true to his faith and oppose homosexual marriage while "being Christian" about it all?

JLL · 01-23-2012, 02:43 PM

(01-23-2012 02:14 PM)myotch Wrote: This is beside the point. Can a Christian be true to his faith and oppose homosexual marriage while "being Christian" about it all?

I think a Christian can. Just like Christians do every day with divorce, gossip, and liquor sales--I don't see many task forces against those "sins". It's not what people think about gay marriage that bothers me, it's what they try to do about it--basically force their beliefs on everyone else. Yes, that's what a lot of people opposed to gay marriage say about it, "they're trying to force their agenda down our throats". But I have yet to hear a news report about gays running around the nation forcing straight people to marry someone of the same sex. I also do not see us demanding that the Second Lutheran Baptist Church of the Nazarene (or whatever) perform same-sex unions.

Tonx · 01-23-2012, 03:32 PM

I'm beautiful in my way
'Cause God makes no mistakes
I'm on the right track, baby
I was born this way