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***Darrell*** · 01-11-2012, 03:40 PM

Quote:why would your life be dark and hopeless without God?

I think having existence that is mere result of a cosmic accident and having no discernible meaning for my past and no hope of any ultimate meaning in the future would be pretty depressing.

Or maybe it would be a real hoot. I dunno. I haven't tried it.

FmrMarine · 01-11-2012, 04:12 PM

(01-11-2012 03:40 PM)Darrell Wrote:
Quote:why would your life be dark and hopeless without God?

I think having existence that is mere result of a cosmic accident and having no discernible meaning for my past and no hope of any ultimate meaning in the future would be pretty depressing.

Or maybe it would be a real hoot. I dunno. I haven't tried it.

Darrell, I think you create your own meaning. Steve Jobs was charitable, innovative and improved many lives through his work. Lance Armstrong has inspired many people by overcoming cancer and competing at the highest levels. Warren Buffett is extremely successful and philanthropic. James Watson and Francis Crick discovered DNA which has been huge in developing life-saving medical treatments. All of these people are atheist/agnostics and, I would submit that they would all feel their lives have meaning and purpose. I would also submit that you would find purpose and meaning in their lives. In fact, you probably have benefited in some way from some of their lives.

***Darrell*** · (This post was last modified: 01-11-2012 04:17 PM by Darrell.)

Quote:, I would submit that they would all feel their lives have meaning and purpose. I would also submit that you would find purpose and meaning in their lives. In fact, you probably have benefited in some way from some of their lives.

I defer to the son of David, king in Jerusalem who expresses how I feel a lot better than I can...

"Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
What profit hath a man of all his labor which he taketh under the sun?
One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.
The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.
All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full: unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.
All things are full of labor; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after."

Then again he was one of those ignorant bronze age dudes so what did he know?

***Darrell*** · 01-11-2012, 04:24 PM

The point is not whether or not atheists can have some positive impact on people's lives here and now. Of course they can. But what will that matter in 1000 years? or a million years? or a billion?

Eventually when the last star winks out and we are all long-forgotten space dust, then what will the point be then? Who will care whether you were a sinner or a saint? If you were kind or mean? What will it matter whatever brief bit of human history once inhabited this planet? I feel like if this is all there is then it's a pretty awful and senseless joke.

If, however, you've found some meaning in your life by only focusing on the here and now and what may happen in the next few years then that's your prerogative. I'm just telling you that I can't really see it.

FmrMarine · 01-11-2012, 04:47 PM

(01-11-2012 04:24 PM)Darrell Wrote: The point is not whether or not atheists can have some positive impact on people's lives here and now. Of course they can. But what will that matter in 1000 years? or a million years? or a billion?

Eventually when the last star winks out and we are all long-forgotten space dust, then what will the point be then? Who will care whether you were a sinner or a saint? If you were kind or mean? What will it matter whatever brief bit of human history once inhabited this planet? I feel like if this is all there is then it's a pretty awful and senseless joke.

If, however, you've found some meaning in your life by only focusing on the here and now and what may happen in the next few years then that's your prerogative. I'm just telling you that I can't really see it.

And now you've touched on something very interesting. If we will experience eternity -- millions and millions of years -- then our time here on earth is incredibly small. It is hardly a blip on the radar of our existence. Yet we are supposed to make a decision regarding eternity (millions and millions of years) in this paper-thin window of 70 - 80 years. It makes no sense.

***Darrell*** · 01-11-2012, 05:15 PM

Quote:And now you've touched on something very interesting. If we will experience eternity -- millions and millions of years -- then our time here on earth is incredibly small. It is hardly a blip on the radar of our existence. Yet we are supposed to make a decision regarding eternity (millions and millions of years) in this paper-thin window of 70 - 80 years. It makes no sense

All you're demonstrating is the inability of the finite to grasp the infinite. We simply can't comprehend "eternity" in anything more than a rudimentary fashion.

That aside, whether it "makes sense" that our actions "now" have ramifications on "later" is simply a function of whether or not you believe that there will, in fact, be a "later."

FmrMarine · 01-11-2012, 05:30 PM

(01-11-2012 05:15 PM)Darrell Wrote:
Quote:And now you've touched on something very interesting. If we will experience eternity -- millions and millions of years -- then our time here on earth is incredibly small. It is hardly a blip on the radar of our existence. Yet we are supposed to make a decision regarding eternity (millions and millions of years) in this paper-thin window of 70 - 80 years. It makes no sense

All you're demonstrating is the inability of the finite to grasp the infinite. We simply can't comprehend "eternity" in anything more than a rudimentary fashion.

That aside, whether it "makes sense" that our actions "now" have ramifications on "later" is simply a function of whether or not you believe that there will, in fact, be a "later."

Fair enough.

captain_solo · 01-11-2012, 05:38 PM

(01-11-2012 01:47 PM)FmrMarine Wrote:
(01-11-2012 12:48 PM)captain_solo Wrote: Olson's critique of "The Shack" suffered from the same deplorable lack of imagination. When you decide that you are God and get to decide what is good and evil, you can come up with all kinds of reasons why God can't possibly be the way he is revealed to be in his Word. I liked some of where he was going but his basic argument was "that sounds like Calvinism" and he ignored the biblical reasons for certain metaphors in the book as well as taking on things that were just part of the fictional setting and making them into points of argument. He is apparently someone who has decided he can cite his own feelings about something as proof and assume all others agree or should agree. Works great on the internet, but when you write a book its time to put that aside and deal with things from a broader perspective of truth, not allow your petty theological bias to be the foundation. Unless of course you are writing a book about your petty theological bias in which case, thanks for making the title obvious so I don't have to read it.

Not a big fan of White, but he does come up with some juicy nuggets from time to time. He is a thinker, while Olson simply spews his opinions with a condescending surety that indicates a serious lack of intellectual humility.

"He is apparently someone who has decided he can cite his own feelings about something as proof and assume all others agree or should agree."

Isn't that basically religion in a nutshell? One must rely on feelings and faith as there is no empirical evidence for any of the world's gods.

When a person claims to be an evangelical - and affirms the integrity of the scriptures, I then expect them to make decisions regarding these things from the foundation they affirmed. I am not speaking of truth in a vaccuum, Olson is a man who claims his truth comes from the scriptures, there is where his empirical evidence should come from.

Having had previous discussions with you, I would never hold you to the same standard because you have said clearly you don't claim the accuracy and authority of the text of Scripture, so yes our discussions would revolve around feelings and faith...

Donb123 · 01-11-2012, 07:30 PM

(01-11-2012 03:23 PM)FmrMarine Wrote: I am really sad that you would feel so worthless without God.

Any notion of "worth" in a random-chance mutation of cells that you call "self" is a mere myth.

lucrezaborgia · 01-11-2012, 08:17 PM

(01-11-2012 07:30 PM)Donb123 Wrote:
(01-11-2012 03:23 PM)FmrMarine Wrote: I am really sad that you would feel so worthless without God.

Any notion of "worth" in a random-chance mutation of cells that you call "self" is a mere myth.

Yeah, cuz that's totally all there is to being human.