George Washington's Prayer

[Mark]

(12-15-2011 08:31 AM)myotch Wrote:  * "In God we Trust" has been on our coinage since the mid-1800's. I see no revisionism in adding it to paper currency in the mid-1900's. As the official motto, it has passed judicial scrutiny (never mind the Supreme Court - it passed scrutiny by the Ninth Circuit!) The phrase was already part of the national lexicon as it's in the National Anthem!

* "Under God" - a phrase that came from Lincoln's Gettysburg Address (missing from official transcripts, but present in every journalists' transcription of the speech) was added to the Pledge after a grass roots adoption and campaign to have it added. Pleasantly surprised that the Knights of Columbus were instrumental in getting this added.

While these might be revising of nationally-recognized phrases, they are rooted in some very real and important milestones in our national history.

Some added historical context for "In God We Trust" "Under God" : It was added to the Pledge in part to bolster American opposition to the godless Communists in the Soviet Union.

Personally, I don't subscribe to the belief that just because a president's speech or the national anthem mentions God, the words contain some mystical element of patriotism that we should embrace.

[myotch]

"In God we trust" is in the pledge? I think I'd like to hear that

Yes, I agree that "under God" and "In God we trust" were a part of the domestic campaign against communism, but it's not the only reason they were added to paper currencies and pledges. This was in the years after WW2, and many Americans had some kind of religious faith.

I think some politicians pay lip service to God, while others are sincere in their belief and don't mind sharing it in small ways on a national stage. While there have always been non-Christians in America, religion in the public square has only been controversial in the last 30-40 years.

All elected officials (I'm sure there's some exceptions) have placed their hand on Sacred Scripture upon taking the oath of office. Congress pays a chaplain, and at one time, a Church held services in Congress on Sunday. Many American cities are named after religious places, people, and concepts. While I do not see an establishment of religion in any of these things or many other examples, I also do not see a wall of separation between church and state the way agnostics and atheists define the term. Frankly, I see an encouragement of religion, which is wholly different that establishment.

[greg]

(12-15-2011 12:57 PM)Yael Wrote:  

(12-15-2011 12:34 PM)greg Wrote:  Our constitution was "made" for "only" a moral and religious people, it wouldn't even be adequate for a non-religious people.

Or at least that's what John Adams thought:

"Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people, it is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Oh, wait a minute.........I think that's what he said...ummm......Well at least I'm pretty sure that's what he said....let me google......hold on......uh...well maybe he didn't really say it, but from the way he acted....I mean....did he support slavery? Why that filthy.......ummm.....anyway somebody told somebody and they supposedly wrote down this quote, but you never can tell, it's all relative.

Can anyone spell apathetic?

Greg,
I guess it really bothers you if someone actually checks into your claims? Rather then being cowed by your brilliant arguments? You did sloppy work and I called you on it. You should have already known there is no consensus about the prayer you quoted and admitted such up front.

You seem to enjoy making fun of anyone who disagrees with you, yet then you have that signature line "Won't you receive this gift?" You forgot to add "all you stupid, lazy, misinformed (and whatever other labels you like to throw around) people." Being as how I don't see 'this gift' doing a whole lot for you, I think I'll just pass, thank you very much. I would suggest either changing your demeanor or losing that line because the two really don't work together very well.

As for your latest quote, whatever its validity, the term used is 'religious', not Christian, so your point is?

I didn't do "sloppy" work, I did no "work" at all. I saw that prayer in our local paper in a daily, very ecumenical piece, maybe some other SFLers saw it as well. I will forever be ashamed that I didn't check with you to make certain of its veracity, nope, like a big dumb, lazy, misinformed, gullible idiot that I am, I took it for being true (still not sure it's not) that's the part they may involve a tad bit of "work." (btw, George Washington was an amazing man and christian and God-led Patriot!)

I have a sneaky suspicion that you wouldn't be interested in this gift, regardless of what I had to say.

What's the point? My point is that for anyone to deny our religious, mainly christian heritage is absolutely idiotic. Now I didn't call you an idiot, but if the shoe fits...................

[lucrezaborgia]

(12-15-2011 02:41 PM)greg Wrote:  I didn't do "sloppy" work, I did no "work" at all. I saw that prayer in our local paper in a daily, very ecumenical piece

You seem to do that a lot from what I've read in your postings. You read something and if it lines up with your current views you swallow it whole instead of doing some digging to see if what you read was correct in the first place.

Again, what does the religious beliefs of men who have been dead for over 200 years have to do with today?

[FmrMarine]

(12-15-2011 02:41 PM)greg Wrote:  

(12-15-2011 12:57 PM)Yael Wrote:  Greg,
I guess it really bothers you if someone actually checks into your claims? Rather then being cowed by your brilliant arguments? You did sloppy work and I called you on it. You should have already known there is no consensus about the prayer you quoted and admitted such up front.

You seem to enjoy making fun of anyone who disagrees with you, yet then you have that signature line "Won't you receive this gift?" You forgot to add "all you stupid, lazy, misinformed (and whatever other labels you like to throw around) people." Being as how I don't see 'this gift' doing a whole lot for you, I think I'll just pass, thank you very much. I would suggest either changing your demeanor or losing that line because the two really don't work together very well.

As for your latest quote, whatever its validity, the term used is 'religious', not Christian, so your point is?

I didn't do "sloppy" work, I did no "work" at all. I saw that prayer in our local paper in a daily, very ecumenical piece, maybe some other SFLers saw it as well. I will forever be ashamed that I didn't check with you to make certain of its veracity, nope, like a big dumb, lazy, misinformed, gullible idiot that I am, I took it for being true (still not sure it's not) that's the part they may involve a tad bit of "work." (btw, George Washington was an amazing man and christian and God-led Patriot!)

I have a sneaky suspicion that you wouldn't be interested in this gift, regardless of what I had to say.

What's the point? My point is that for anyone to deny our religious, mainly christian heritage is absolutely idiotic. Now I didn't call you an idiot, but if the shoe fits...................

Why can't you just engage someone without all the condescention and hyperbole? You seem so combative in these threads.

[Monipenny]

Wow, greg, your "testimony" speaks volumes. Which local paper are you referring too, The Sword of the Lord? You really aught to investigate certain claims that are spoken as factual truths before spreading them around, sooner or later your claims will be met with a challenge that will demonstrate your ignorance. Really, a simple "wow you have a point, I should'nt just accept every thing I hear as true even when it comes from my MOG."

[Ricardo]

SoTL: Uncalled for. Let's ratchet it down, folks!

Part of the problem is we are speaking in code.

"Christian nation" means many things to many people.

We have just seen one or two major companies pull their advertising from the "Muslims in America" TV program, in response to complaints by a Christian organization. It is not "prayer" we want in schools, but "Christian prayers." This is partly why Romney doesn't have a prayer of a chance.

It seems for some people "Christian nation" means you have to be Christian in order to be American.

One thing is to acknowledge the influence Christianity has had in History.

But guess what? Europe has had twice or three times the amount of years of Christian influence than America has. They have had a multitude of Christian Governments. Italy and Grece have way more reason to call themselves "Christian nations." After all their Christian pedigrees go back to Biblical times.

So when Greg talks about admiting it is the Christian influence that makes this nation great, I'm not sure what he is refering to. I believe the Free Masons have a better chance at proving it was THEIR influence that makes America great.

[lucrezaborgia]

(12-15-2011 03:58 PM)Ricardo Wrote:  "Christian nation" means many things to many people.

(snip)

It seems for some people "Christian nation" means you have to be Christian in order to be American.

This is exactly how I feel when people mention America being a "Christian nation." I do recognize the religious foundations that this country was built on yet at the same time I think way too much weight is given to the opinions of a bunch of dead men who in no way were representative of the average American either back then or today.

[lucrezaborgia]

(12-15-2011 03:58 PM)Ricardo Wrote:  So when Greg talks about admiting it is the Christian influence that makes this nation great, I'm not sure what he is refering to. I believe the Free Masons have a better chance at proving it was THEIR influence that makes America great.

I have to be with Yael on this one...our country has done some great things but we're not the bestest and greatest country on the face of the earth. We're one of the most wealthy, that's for sure.

[greg]

You guys have a mindset, an incorrect one I perceive, about the founding of this country. My entire "point" in any and all of this thread, is simply to poke fun at the "idiocy" that is so prevalent and PC today, to act as though there were no religious, christian men involved in the founding and settling of this great country. That's it, that's all.

We have an amazing, wonderful history (not all was wonderful btw, think slavery) however, just as selling Joseph into slavery was wrong God turned it into good. Every black person that can trace their ancestry back to the slave trade, should honor and thank God that they were brought to the most blessed country in the world. Slavery was horrible, but in a relatively short period of time, not only was slavery abolished, but we have an African-American president!! Can any of you give me an example of a country that has done anything similar in such a short time span?

memo to Monipenny: I'm not a fundy, never heard of the Sword of the Lord til I saw it talked about on here, being that I just posted the "lying" thread, I may have heard of it somewhere back in the distant past, but have never read it. I may have left fundyism, but I reserve the right to stand strong in my faith, and proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ and to thank and honor Him for Godly men and women that settled this great land, and yes it was not without its problems.

I never "just accept" what I hear from the MOG as true.

The newspaper I got the prayer from is the Northern Va Daily, the little piece is called "Our Daily Bread" by Reverend Purnell Bailey. It appears in the paper 6 days a week,

I love all the judgement I am getting about my testimony, did ya'll ever read the story of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane? Peter grabbed his sword and sliced off one of the Romans ears, and I got news for ya, I don't think he was aiming for his ear!!! Jesus put it back on, Hey fmrmarine there you go! Anyway, if Peter was defending his Lord with a sword (and he was the first Pope, right Catholics?) don't get too worried about my forthrightness. Read the scriptures, you'll see not all christians are sweet and nice, and do everything you "think" they should do. I'm not perfect, but let me tell you I know whom I serve, and btw, who are you to judge another man's servant?