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Don · 11-07-2011, 12:31 AM

Here is a program worth watching

lucrezaborgia · (This post was last modified: 11-07-2011 12:54 AM by lucrezaborgia.)

This really does belong in the other thread...but I'll bite.

I only did a quick read of what you linked. Geographical locations were confirmed via Acts? Did you know they used the Iliad to find Troy? The fact that geography was proved doesn't automatically make the spiritual claims truth just as much as finding Troy means that the Illiad is truth. That geography and other social cues can be confirmed is a byproduct of being created in a certain time and place. I don't doubt that there are some markers of history in the bible, but again, these are not proof of truth or even proof that the NT is special in that regard. Authenticity, to me, does not equal spiritual truth. Authenticity merely means we can use it reliably for historical purposes.

First video lost me once it talked about Jews in Egypt. They were there, but there have never been any reliable evidence outside of the OT that they were a significant population until around 400 BC. The rest is somewhat true but the way that video presents it gives way more meaning than what archeologists have reported. My geology teacher actually goes on digs in the holy land and lectured on a lot of these same sites.

Second vid talking about the discovery of Sodom? There are some candidate cities, but none of them have ever been confirmed. Again, a topic my geology teacher lectured on.

I think there is some confusing going on with my words so let me clarify:

When I speak of truth and the NT or the bible in general, I mean spiritual truth. Not whether or not the entire story is a fairy tale. I did not mean to imply that I thought that everything in the bible was false or that the bible is a story with no philosophical or historical merit. I am saying that I do not believe the bible has the corner on spiritual truth.

Monipenny · (This post was last modified: 11-07-2011 12:47 AM by Monipenny.)

(11-06-2011 11:19 PM)Don Wrote:
(11-06-2011 08:09 PM)lucrezaborgia Wrote: Yeah, they won the Superbowl last year, but that does not explain every game being sold out since the 60's. The waiting list for season tickets is 40 years long too! Packers fans are not fair-weather fans like sports fans in Miami.

As to the rest, now I'm confused. You are saying there is evidence outside of the bible that proves its truth? Isn't that the argument in the other thread? Not gonna go there in this thread...

Quote:There is historical evidence that proves the veracity of Scripture and we see that there are eyewitness acounts that were not able to be refuted by the generation in which they took place.

Historical evidence: Start with Sir Wm Ramsey's work that began as an attempt to discredit the Bible (specifically Luke's writings) as historically innaccurate. "The bearing of recent discovery on the trustworthiness of the New Testament"
http://www.archive.org/stream/bearingofr...7/mode/2up

You claim that we can't use the Bible to prove what is in the Bible. That is both not rational and illogical. You claim it is circular resoning to use the Bible to prove itself. It's not, but by making the claim you effectively remove eyewitness accounts from a multitude of different sources. Your bias against the Bible as a whole blinds you to the truth found in it's pages. You find something in the Scriptures that you find objectional, you claim it's a lie so therefore the entire cannon of scripture is a lie and therefore inadmissable. Is that rational?

Other religions can prove they have the truth too with their "inspired" books. It's not an arguement I am looking for and I certainly am not trying to discredit christianity here, I realize this is a christian site and I am on your turf. I am still working on figuring things out from my fundy experience.

For me to be a believer again, I need proof outside of a book written by men. Just because they say they were inspired by God, don't make it so, besides people are known to be liars. Of all things, why would God reveal himself only to a select few men, and how do we know they weren't lying? These are just questions that go through my head, I don't expect answers. I appreciate the time you took trying.

squiz · 11-29-2011, 08:41 AM

This thread is too long for me to read through, so I apologise if this has already been written.

What such atrocities tell me, is just how dangerous all fanatical ideology can be when not leavened with doubt.

greg · 11-29-2011, 11:53 AM

It is a monsoon around here today. I can't hike or hunt so I've been reading, in fact I read this entire thread. Fascinating reading, btw. So some of my observations:

First, PW you still rock!!! What grace! I know the atheists don't get it, but your spirit always bears witness with my spirit, and we both know what that means, they won't understand, so I won't go into it.

Second, FmrMarine and his amputee question. Matthew 16:1-4, I know you don't want us christians using the Word, but the Word is life to the christian. The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us.

"The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven. He replied "When evening comes, you say, it will be fair weather, for the sky is red, and in the morning, today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast. You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away."

Third, I was beginning to wonder if anyone on "our" side was going to use the precious word of God, and finally Don utilized this most blessed "sword," and that is what I would like to finish with. It doesn't matter at all, what I think or say. Please read what thus saith the Lord!!

John 1:1-5 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. the light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it." v-14 "the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us."

Romans 1:18-20 "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

Psalms 19:1-4 "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun.

FmrMarine · 11-29-2011, 01:02 PM

(11-29-2011 11:53 AM)greg Wrote: It is a monsoon around here today. I can't hike or hunt so I've been reading, in fact I read this entire thread. Fascinating reading, btw. So some of my observations:

First, PW you still rock!!! What grace! I know the atheists don't get it, but your spirit always bears witness with my spirit, and we both know what that means, they won't understand, so I won't go into it.

Second, FmrMarine and his amputee question. Matthew 16:1-4, I know you don't want us christians using the Word, but the Word is life to the christian. The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us.

"The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven. He replied "When evening comes, you say, it will be fair weather, for the sky is red, and in the morning, today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast. You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away."

Third, I was beginning to wonder if anyone on "our" side was going to use the precious word of God, and finally Don utilized this most blessed "sword," and that is what I would like to finish with. It doesn't matter at all, what I think or say. Please read what thus saith the Lord!!

John 1:1-5 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. the light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it." v-14 "the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us."

Romans 1:18-20 "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

Psalms 19:1-4 "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun.

You very conveniently leave out the many verses of "this blessed sword" where Jesus whatever you ask in his name will be done. I cited numerous verses throughout the thread and could cite many more. Since you raised the question again, how do you answer why god won't heal amputees?

Monipenny · 11-29-2011, 03:44 PM

(11-29-2011 01:02 PM)FmrMarine Wrote:
(11-29-2011 11:53 AM)greg Wrote: It is a monsoon around here today. I can't hike or hunt so I've been reading, in fact I read this entire thread. Fascinating reading, btw. So some of my observations:

First, PW you still rock!!! What grace! I know the atheists don't get it, but your spirit always bears witness with my spirit, and we both know what that means, they won't understand, so I won't go into it.

Second, FmrMarine and his amputee question. Matthew 16:1-4, I know you don't want us christians using the Word, but the Word is life to the christian. The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us.

"The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven. He replied "When evening comes, you say, it will be fair weather, for the sky is red, and in the morning, today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast. You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away."

Third, I was beginning to wonder if anyone on "our" side was going to use the precious word of God, and finally Don utilized this most blessed "sword," and that is what I would like to finish with. It doesn't matter at all, what I think or say. Please read what thus saith the Lord!!

John 1:1-5 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. the light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it." v-14 "the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us."

Romans 1:18-20 "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

Psalms 19:1-4 "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun.

You very conveniently leave out the many verses of "this blessed sword" where Jesus whatever you ask in his name will be done. I cited numerous verses throughout the thread and could cite many more. Since you raised the question again, how do you answer why god won't heal amputees?

First, FmrMarine you still rock!!! What common sense! I know the christians don't get it, but your spirit/mind always bears witness with my spirit/mind, and we both know what that means, they won't understand, so I won't go into it.

Greg, the difference between us and you/christians. You believe "thus sayeth the lord". We believe your book was thus sayeth the liars who wrote a book and claimed divine inspiration. So nothing to argue here, I admonish you to examine these things wether they be true or not useing the same skeptical mind that you would use while examining the Muslim faith.

oneflewoutofthecuckcoosnest · 11-29-2011, 05:43 PM

(11-29-2011 03:44 PM)Monipenny Wrote:
(11-29-2011 01:02 PM)FmrMarine Wrote: You very conveniently leave out the many verses of "this blessed sword" where Jesus whatever you ask in his name will be done. I cited numerous verses throughout the thread and could cite many more. Since you raised the question again, how do you answer why god won't heal amputees?

First, FmrMarine you still rock!!! What common sense! I know the christians don't get it, but your spirit/mind always bears witness with my spirit/mind, and we both know what that means, they won't understand, so I won't go into it.

Greg, the difference between us and you/christians. You believe "thus sayeth the lord". We believe your book was thus sayeth the liars who wrote a book and claimed divine inspiration. So nothing to argue here, I admonish you to examine these things wether they be true or not useing the same skeptical mind that you would use while examining the Muslim faith.

It seems you've left Christianity. If you were a fundy, I don't blame you. But you haven't left superficial views of Christianity.

Trapped Pentecostal · 11-29-2011, 08:17 PM

(11-29-2011 05:43 PM)oneflewoutofthecuckcoosnest Wrote:
(11-29-2011 03:44 PM)Monipenny Wrote: First, FmrMarine you still rock!!! What common sense! I know the christians don't get it, but your spirit/mind always bears witness with my spirit/mind, and we both know what that means, they won't understand, so I won't go into it.

Greg, the difference between us and you/christians. You believe "thus sayeth the lord". We believe your book was thus sayeth the liars who wrote a book and claimed divine inspiration. So nothing to argue here, I admonish you to examine these things wether they be true or not useing the same skeptical mind that you would use while examining the Muslim faith.

It seems you've left Christianity. If you were a fundy, I don't blame you. But you haven't left superficial views of Christianity.

I was a Christian for over twenty years. For over two decades, I wanted to know God. I read everything I could to try to get closer to him. I went to church every time the doors were open, not because I went to a fundy church that required it, but because I wanted to.

All of that time I spent trying to connect with God somehow, and never, not even once, did God communicate in any way with me or show me anything that wasn't part of the natural world. Not even once.

And you have the nerve to tell people like FmrMarine and Monipenny that they have some sort of "superficial view" of Christianity?

I can't tell you how many people I've met who say that when they really studied the Bible is when they decided they could no longer stay in the faith. Once they realized that most of the stories were derived from other ancient religions, once they learned how the Bible was assembled, once they really read what the Bible actually said without their spiritual goggles on, they just couldn't remain believers. But I suppose that's just the result of "superficial views" as well.

I guess you'll find some way to blame me for not seeing any of the wonderful side of God that I always hear about. You'll tell me I didn't pray enough, or that I didn't believe hard enough, or I didn't read the word enough, or I didn't do enough to help others, or I just couldn't let go of my intellect enough, or I just didn't go to the right church to hear the right words that would put me in the right spirit to say the right prayers that would finally wake the fickle, crotchety, old bastard up enough so that he might reach out to me in return somehow.

Nonsense. I reached out to God, the best way I knew how, and I didn't get a damn thing in return. How is that a "relationship" instead of a "religion," as Christians are so fond of saying? Doesn't having a "relationship" imply some form of communication going in both directions?

I stopped believing because I was never given any reason to keep believing. For all of the talk about "greater things shall you do in my name," I never saw anything even remotely miraculous before, during, or after I was a Christian. How much longer should I have waited to hear something from God or to see an honest to goodness miracle? Ten more years? Twenty more years? Until the day I pass away? Nonsense.

But I guess that's all just "superficial."

**myotch** · 11-29-2011, 08:44 PM

I don't fault anyone's faith for *needing* miracles. If we had them, though, would our faith be faith?

On the other hand, perhaps we can't see the forest for the trees. Only in the last 10 years or so, I've grown to appreciate the miracles I *can* see - not that God has touched the earth and cross-wired the vortices of the natural and supernatural so that I may personally see a glimpse of God's power, but rather, how God is working within me, changing me, calling me to a continual conversion. Quite frankly, which is a better show of God's power, which is more meaningful?