Michael Horton quote/Forgiveness

[beensetfree]

A quote from Michael Horton discussing the upcoming talk from Kim Riddlebarger called: A Reformation Pilgrimage
"Well, he(Kim) and I were raised in very similar backgrounds. Solid evangelical bible church backgrounds that today have actually moved pretty very far away from what he was raised with. And you know, what is it like to move from sort of broad evangelicalism to to what we call the cage phase. You know, when you're a little bit frustrated with people in that background not telling you what you see now with such clarity in the scriptures. So there's this, a kind of this feeling of "you gipped me". How do you get over that with grace and a charity and forgiveness and appreciation for the fact that none of us is perfect any more in our doctrine than we are in our life. How do you get over that and get to the place where you are just excited about learning the Scriptures more, sharing the Gospel with people who don't know Christ and seeing churches thrive. And that's where he is, you know we're all pilgrims."

What's in bold really speaks to my journey over the past 6 years. I look forward to hearing this audio one day, it's set to be recorded in January. Before someone thinks it, I'm not trying to say excuse extreme IFB abuse that needs to be dealt with by civil authorities. Or even belittling spiritual abuse, I've been there. But there is something to be gleaned from the fact other people have had a difficult Christian journey and by God's grace it doesn't have to end up in bitterness.

[FinallyFree]

I agree. A phenomena I have seen amongst us former fundys is that we take the bitterness we learned in our fundy journey with us when we leave. We then direct it back towards those from whom we learned it from, which shows that we are still more fundy in our attitude that we care to admit.
The fact that you have to mention that you do not excuse the abuses is illustrative of this. You have to defend yourself before the accusations are hurled, because they do sometimes come when comments like the quote you gave are made.
Thanks for sharing.

[pastor's wife]

I'm struggling with balance in this area, especially as I look at the example of Christ. Christ was very vocal against those who laid heavy burdens on people and looked down on others. He called them out by name. He specifically declared what was harmful and wrong in their doctrine. He loved them and dealt with them graciously on a one-on-one basis (like Nicodemus), but was unstinting in declaring that their approach to God was wrong. Paul too was harsh against the Judaziers.

I'm personally trying not to be bitter, but I can't just act as if the IFB teaching was OK. It is often harmful and divisive and adds to the simple Gospel and judges other believers over preferences like music or clothing styles.

[FinallyFree]

I don't think we should act like IFB teaching is OK. The distortion of the gospel is disgusting and tragic. I think the key is, as you state, not being bitter and spiteful. Christ never minced words with the Pharisees, but his heart also broke for Jerusalem. I think that IFBdom creates and encourages bitterness by default. It's tough to not turn that which they taunt us against them. That's why we have to keep looking to Christ.

[beensetfree]

(09-18-2011 03:34 PM)pastors wife Wrote:  I'm personally trying not to be bitter, but I can't just act as if the IFB teaching was OK. It is often harmful and divisive and adds to the simple Gospel and judges other believers over preferences like music or clothing styles.

I know for Michael Horton and Ken Riddlebarger it's been the trumpeting of the Gospel that they've used to combat error. Because when that is rightly understood and your life is oriented around that truth a lot of the wrong teaching will fall away. The part of the audio prior to this Horton said as much. Definitely happened that way for me.

[Naomi]

(09-18-2011 03:29 PM)FinallyFree Wrote:  You have to defend yourself before the accusations are hurled, because they do sometimes come when comments like the quote you gave are made.

beensetfree wouldn't have to say that if so many fundies weren't using accusations of "bitterness" to silence the abused. Let's put the blame for the more serious problem where it actually lies.

My experience is that both bitterness and forgiveness are poorly understood concepts. Bitterness isn't really an issue for me. I feel that it's definitely misidentified a lot. Emotions like anger or exasperation, or even just plain disagreement, get labeled as bitter. Being willing to give voice to injustices is called bitter. In reality I can't think of anyone I know that could be described as bitter, emotionally speaking. Hateful? Maybe. But bitter? That's just not quite the right word.

I thought I knew what forgiveness was until maybe three years ago. I came to the realization that I had already forgiven some people who'd hurt me badly, even though they'd never apologized or even cared about what they'd done (despite my being open about how much it was hurting). All I wanted was to move forward with the relationships, which would require them to stop the hurtful behavior and acknowledge what they'd done. That wouldn't erase what happened in the past, and no, I didn't need to forget about it or needlessly open myself up to be hurt again if they seemed like they were going to continue the behavior. But I would always be there waiting to move ahead with the relationships, if they ever wanted to reconcile things. I almost never think of the original hurt unless I'm reminded of it by something similar. It's still a part of me, and part of my life story, but I've moved on in almost every way, just with some extra life lessons to carry. Anyway, I realized forgiveness looked very different than the "don't bring it up ever again" definition I grew up with.

I feel like it could be productive to just start out asking what forgiveness or bitterness means to people here. What is bitterness to you? What is forgiveness?

[Tiarali]

(09-18-2011 04:19 PM)Naomi Wrote:  I feel like it could be productive to just start out asking what forgiveness or bitterness means to people here. What is bitterness to you? What is forgiveness?

Bitterness, I think, is a label used to denigrate a person you disagree with, so that you don't have to honestly address their concerns.

Forgiveness, I think, is when even though what was done is wrong, and even though they may have never rectified the situation, you have enough healing to be able to head forward in your life without it affecting you. And yes that means that you're not wishing evil on those who hurt you, but it's because what they did isn't damaging you anymore, not because what they did doesn't matter.

I think... I am only a few months out and this whole thinking thing is very new to me. I am still very angry and upset and hurting. But I've been thumped with 'forgive, forgive, forgive!' and I don't think that word means what they think it means (ie ignore what was done and act as though nothing happened; repress any feelings of hurt that you experience). If the focus is on healing, and on returning to the Word of God and growing in God's grace, then I think forgiveness will come, in time, without much effort... although there will always be variations depending on for example what it was that was done in the first place.

[SpaceGhost]

People just don't become "bitter" without a reason. The whole superstructure of Fundamentalism breeds bitterness because they drive the sensitive to go against their conscience and then use mob rule to enforce it. So, they have the option of becoming bitter or apathetic (that would be me) towards many things that conservative Christians go crazy over. Bitterness is a response to being lorded over by someone or something and not being able to defend themselves. Once the person realizes that these social misfits (read: LOSERS) have no power over them, then the bitterness has an opportunity to disolve out of their lives.

If you think about it, think about the man/men in leadership positions within the IFB who claim to be speaking for God in YOUR life, if they weren't "speaking for God", what else could they be doing?
Auto Sales
Vacuum Sales
Working in Sales at Best Buy
Working in a Call Center
Running Scams

etc., kinda puts things in perspective?

[beensetfree]

(09-19-2011 09:57 AM)tiarali Wrote:  I think... I am only a few months out and this whole thinking thing is very new to me. I am still very angry and upset and hurting. But I've been thumped with 'forgive, forgive, forgive!' and I don't think that word means what they think it means (ie ignore what was done and act as though nothing happened; repress any feelings of hurt that you experience). If the focus is on healing, and on returning to the Word of God and growing in God's grace, then I think forgiveness will come, in time, without much effort... although there will always be variations depending on for example what it was that was done in the first place.

I pray God will comfort you during this time and on that journey. Indeed, sounds like you are heading in the right direction. This is a process that does seem to happen in phases and this quote seems to imply as much. Some of us need more time and healing than others depending on the degree of what we went through. But Jesus Christ is the answer for all of us. He is certainly acquainted with spiritual abuse so we can confidently approach Him with that pain, He is the balm of Gilead, He binds up the brokenhearted, He does not leave or forsake us but tells us to come to Him and find rest for our souls.

Getting to the point where you can actually say Amen to Romans 12:16-20b19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head."
It doesn't mean excusing false ideas but perhaps replacing them with truth in your own life. Physical abuse always needs to be taken to an earthly court as well. You'll definitely be able to minister to people who are going through that awful experience once you are mended. And hopefully you'll find a good Pastor faithfully proclaiming Christ. Hopefully our experiences will eventually lead to a stronger faith and ability to proclaim the Gospel to our captive friends and if we still have contact, loving them with the measure Christ has shown us. All in time and all by the Spirit's power.
This from someone who is GOING through it and it's not easy. I'm not trying to sound like a pious windbag and hope it doesn't come off that way.

[Tiarali]

(09-19-2011 11:36 AM)beensetfree Wrote:  Getting to the point where you can actually say Amen to Romans 12:16-20b19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head."

That was the verse that was the turnaround for me. I'd had so many people telling me to just forgive, and that it wasn't about me. That verse was a shock to me; it was like - it is about me. Not because I'm amazing or overly important, but just because God cares about me enough to make it about me. He loves me so much he is willing to fight my battles for me. God does love me after all, and my hurts do matter.

Now the issue for me is that somehow I feel like I need to separate my anger from my response to what has happened/is happening. There is still a known criminal (who has never confessed what he's done to the police) in charge of the counselling ministry at the church, and many people who do not respect child safety laws involved in the children's ministry at the church. I have written a letter to the pastor and he shrugged it all off. So on the one hand I feel like I have responsibility to show what has been done so that it doesn't remain hidden, but I need to not act in anger but act from a conviction that it is wrong to stay silent about evil that is still continuing.

It is too early for me. But I honestly do believe that staying silent is evil. It's not like I haven't tried to talk to the Pastor. I don't know, it's a mess.

(09-19-2011 11:36 AM)"beensetfree Wrote:  I'm not trying to sound like a pious windbag and hope it doesn't come off that way.

Definitely not