MacArthur says God needs to apologise to Sodom and Gamorrah

[exIFB]

Once again, showing that he is not a dispensationalist of any sort, and furthermore, doesn't even understand the new covenant, John MacArthur has said (repeated) something completely ridiculous.

http://www.thechurchofnopeople.com/2011/...#more-2609

http://www.christianpost.com/news/john-m...ent-51584/

MacArthur stressed that because God was patient with Israel, America should not expect Him to be patient with it. “As somebody said a few years ago, if God doesn’t destroy America pretty soon, He’s gonna have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.”

So the cross did nothing regarding God's relationship with humanity. God apparently still deals with nations like he did under the Old Covenant. The veil is still there, the law is still a wall of partition between the Jews and the Gentiles. Forget about 2 Cor 5:18-21 where God has reconciled the world to himself and does not count their sins against them.

If God destroyed America for sin, he would have to apologise to Jesus, because Jesus already took the punishment for sin. And God deals with individuals now, not nations.

Also, despite God saying that He is longsuffering, patient, kind, we actually can't expect him to be true to His nature, because He already was patient with Israel. What on earth is that supposed to mean? He is basically saying God gave Israel the get out of jail free card, and he doesn't have anymore, so watch out!

Seriously, try and not turn this into a debate about calvinism. And don't accuse me of universalism either. Cheers.

[leaving]

I don't have a lot of respect for much of anything MacArthur has to say...

[Don]

A few questions.

1: Does the New Covenant annul God's covenant with Israel? (the Abrahamic Covenant)

2: Is an earthly land or a government promised to anyone under the New Covenant?

3: Are you equating how God deals with Nations with how God deals with individuals? (especially since nations and governments are neither covenant nor Christian)

4: Do you believe in replacement theology?

[Tony Mel]

Excellent questions, Don.

I believe that the New Covenant, rather than annulling God's covenant with Israel, it broadens it. Israel will, eventually, be gathered in the land promised to Abraham. When will this happen? As soon as the entire world is inundated with the gospel and Christ's Kingdom is realized on earth. Every nation will be a Christian nation, and "the kingdoms of the world [will] become the kingdoms of our God."

Because of his belief in dispensational (or futuristic) theology, MacArthur must inevitably conclude that things will become worse and worse, and the next thing in this world's agenda is a ravening doomsday that will wipe out billions of people. The truth is that the US is not only one of the countries with most Christians in the world but also the hub for countless Christian missions worldwide. What about the abortions, sexual immorality, and corruption that happen in this country? These things provide a stark contrast between the children of God and the children of the devil. What legislation has done is allow for this contrast to be made more apparent.

Does America need to "go back" to God? Is God somehow bound to the "covenant" the original Pilgrim/Puritan settlers made? This morning I visited a church where this kind of nationalistic nonsense was preached, and I left in the middle of the service. The truth is that the original settlers that we often revere sinned greatly against the Lord by stealing the land from its original inhabitants and establishing their own culture. The Indians, a word whose very etymology reveals our Euro-centered bias, were either brutally killed or confined in reservations (this one happened later). The US's foundation was wrong from the start.

We cannot change the past, but we can certainly influence the future. God has used the unrighteousness of man to bring about His kingdom. Legislation against abortion or homosexual marriage will not improve society. Bringing back the Prohibition will not sober our country. Voting Republican will not bring the US an inch closer to God. The only hope for this country, as with every other country, is the gospel. If we believers forsake legalism and man-centered theology (ie. KJV-onlyism, skirts onlyism, classical music-onlyism) and enjoy Jesus Christ and his freeing grace, the Holy Spirit may sovereignly use us to further our influence.

http://www.TruthStandsScrutiny.com

[exIFB]

1. Not annulled. In fact, the New Covenant is part of the Abrahamic covenant (through Abraham, all nations would be blessed, not cursed - Genesis 22:15-19). That covenant had shadows in the Old Mosaic Covenant, but it was not fulfilled by it.

2. Yes. Israel. Whether that is the Israel of faith paul writes about or the literal nation, I don't know. I'm kind fluctuating between NCT and DT. Leaning more towards NCT.

3. No, I'm not equating them. I'm dividing them. Dequating I'm saying God is not dealing with nations today, because he has no chosen nation through which to do it. Instead, he has a chosen body (the body of Christ), made up of individuals, which deals with individuals. If you ask me does God put people in charge of nations etc, then yes, but there is no chosen nation that is being sent as emissaries to foreign countries, telling them to believe in the God of <insert nation here>, or whatever. If there are divisions in humanity today, it is this - Gentile, Jew (all under sin), Church (body of Christ, freed from sin).

4. No. And even if I did, I don't see how that would make a difference.

[Don]

Quote:I'm saying God is not dealing with nations today, because he has no chosen nation through which to do it.

Why does God need a temporal nation to work through?

Does scripture not say in Daniel 2:21, "...he removes kings and sets up kings;" We may not see the apocalyptical hand of God in some Sodom and Gomorrah moment, but we do see God dealing with nations. It can be said with all authority that all rulers are in place by the divine decree of God according to Romans 13:1-2,

Quote:"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."

It is completely Biblical to say that God does set kings and kingdoms in place and he has equal power and authority to take those same nations/governments/rulers down as well. I dont believe in the Jack Van Impe approach to reconcilling all news and current events to Matthew 24 somehow. Or that all negative news is somehow proof of imminent rapture/ Tribulation.

If God uses a financial crisis to take down America is that any less his hand dealing with us than if he were to allow an enemy to attack us and conquer us? To be sure, the Pat Robertsons, Jack Van Impes, Hal Lindsey's of this world are poisoning the well with all their scare tactics claims brought on by reading prophesy into every world event.

For all that, God does still deal with nations. Look at an atlas of 1948 and then look at a current one. Look at the differences all over the Globe. Look at the pain and suffering brought on by the collapse of governments and the death or overthrow of leaders. Yes, God does still judge nations here and now on this earth. Individuals will be judged at either the Great White Throne of Judgment or the Judgment Seat of Christ. One unto the second death, the other unto rewards for faithful stewardship unto the Gospel and person of Christ.

[exIFB]

(07-03-2011 11:56 PM)Don Wrote:  For all that, God does still deal with nations. Look at an atlas of 1948 and then look at a current one. Look at the differences all over the Globe. Look at the pain and suffering brought on by the collapse of governments and the death or overthrow of leaders. Yes, God does still judge nations here and now on this earth.

Why do you equate all the pain and suffering to God? And if it was God, you'd think he could be more obvious about it. The earth is sin cursed. The problem is sin. The cure is Jesus.

You said

" Look at the pain and suffering brought on by the collapse of governments and the death or overthrow of leaders. Yes, God does still judge nations here and now on this earth."

It's missing something...

Look at the pain and suffering brought on by the collapse of governments and the death or overthrow of leaders. <RIGHT HERE IS A HUGE GAP - YOU SAY LOOK AT THE SUFFERING AND THEN MAKE YOUR CONCLUSION IN THE NEXT SENTENCE WITHOUT EVIDENCE> Yes, God does still judge nations here and now on this earth.

(that wasn't meant to be shouting).

Anyway, I'm out of this forum. Waste of time. People only want to argue.

[diachenko]

(07-04-2011 01:07 AM)exIFB Wrote:  [
Anyway, I'm out of this forum. Waste of time. People only want to argue.

Wait, you started a thread dealing with some thought provoking subjects and questions that would obviously lead to discussion and argumentation, then you decide to abandon the thread because people are debating, discussing, and arguing the subjects?

[greg]

I was enjoying it all, great comments from all sides, and yes, gave me some things to chew on, and great not to be in the middle of it.

Also Happy Independence Day to you all.

[Ricardo]

"if God doesn’t destroy America pretty soon, He’s gonna have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.”

That is why there are tsunamis in Thailand and Japan, but NONE in Las Vegas.