Is Tithing Biblical?

[Don]

Quote:Education isn't biblical

I would beg to differ.
Look at Joseph, Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, Azariah, Isaiah, Paul, Luke... Education is biblical. Words like Study, search, learn and the concept of using one's mind are deep biblical concepts.
Yet we see in scriptures that it is not to puff up and make proud. In our 21st century world we use education and/or the lack thereof as a means of class disticntion. We have been so indoctrinated, so programmed to compartmentalize "everything" that it is easier to allow someone to think for us than it is to think for ourselves.

The Fundies have made an art form out of their anti-intellectualism. Then have perfected the "weaker Brother" syndrome and have developed a unique subculture out of the Acts 4:13a view of education. They boast in their ignorance and lack of learning. (I know, I sat under a master manipulator that only had a Jethro education: 8th grade.) Now, someone that unlearned and ignorant may have some small insight but unlike the Disciples they cannot claim to have been with Jesus. That is extra biblical at best and Cult practice at worst. Their very lack of education can lead to doctrinal error and even greater heresy.

No, education should not be used as an elitist hammer to lord over others with, but ignorance should not be paraded as a virtue either.

Remember Dickens and the Ghost of Christmas Present's speech on Ignorance and Want. "This boy is Ignorance. This girl is Want. Beware them both, and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy, for on his brow I see that written which is Doom, unless the writing be erased."

[Don]

Quote:If possible, why busy a pastor with a paper route when he could give himself to prayer and the ministry of the Word?

Why? Because there are very few who practice that lofty ideal. They are left with too much time on their hands and they need the dicipline that earning a living brings. This idea that every little group in all the store fronts, and "church" buildings has to have their own pastor is what I find unbiblical. Here in the rusted Buckle of the Bible Belt you can't spit without hitting a church building... and they all have salaried pastors. Why is that? All that money wasted on real estate and not one real need is ever met.

The most insidious thing is that it is not really about money, rather it is about Power. The meanest paid "pastor" will not share his congregation with another even if together they could be a greater witness in the community than they could alone... why? Power. At some point even the most humble, most noble of men will succumb to the seduction of the power that is readily available to the Independent Fundamental "pastor" or any "pastor" who is not accountable to anyone but God... because they will quickly become the only god thay are accountable to.

[Tony R]

What Don said

Two Thumbs up Don!!

[pastor's wife]

(04-06-2011 11:28 PM)Don Wrote:  This idea that every little group in all the store fronts, and "church" buildings has to have their own pastor is what I find unbiblical. Here in the rusted Buckle of the Bible Belt you can't spit without hitting a church building... and they all have salaried pastors. Why is that? All that money wasted on real estate and not one real need is ever met.

They can't ever join together, because they've elevated minor points of disagreement into major doctrines. "Aaaaah, look at that horrible church over THERE!!! They have real wine during communion!" The build the walls high and look at each other with suspicion instead of seeing other Christians as part of the body.

Quote:The meanest paid "pastor" will not share his congregation with another even if together they could be a greater witness in the community than they could alone... why? Power.

Our church is going to the elder rule model instead of the single pastor.

A couple years ago, a tiny nearby church (maybe 20 people tops and all over 60) was asking one of our deacons to come fill in at their pulpit because their elderly pastor had serious health problems. My husband spoke to them about merging with our church, but they refused.

Recently another church's band came to our church Sunday night and played an evening of praise and worship for us free of charge, just to be a blessing. And coming up, our church will be going into the inner city to help another church pick up its neighborhood. It's so fun to be able to help others instead of seeing them as "competition."

[TomK]

@Don

The context of the "Education isn't biblical" statement is Tony R's remark

Quote:And since when did undergraduate school and seminary become biblical qualification to be a pastor?

to which the obvious answer is that it isn't a qualification. It is wise, not biblically required. Please disagree with me in context, not out of context.

I live in southern Cal, not in the rusty Bible belt. I grew up in Phoenix, one of America's most unchurched cities. I'm sure my perspective would be different if I lived in the land of member-swapping churches, but I live in the land of few churches. In the west, pastors have little Power and there are more than enough unchurched to go around.

[Don]

(04-06-2011 11:44 PM)pastors wife Wrote:  

(04-06-2011 11:28 PM)Don Wrote:  This idea that every little group in all the store fronts, and "church" buildings has to have their own pastor is what I find unbiblical. Here in the rusted Buckle of the Bible Belt you can't spit without hitting a church building... and they all have salaried pastors. Why is that? All that money wasted on real estate and not one real need is ever met.

They can't ever join together, because they've elevated minor points of disagreement into major doctrines. "Aaaaah, look at that horrible church over THERE!!! They have real wine during communion!" The build the walls high and look at each other with suspicion instead of seeing other Christians as part of the body.

Quote:The meanest paid "pastor" will not share his congregation with another even if together they could be a greater witness in the community than they could alone... why? Power.

Our church is going to the elder rule model instead of the single pastor.

A couple years ago, a tiny nearby church (maybe 20 people tops and all over 60) was asking one of our deacons to come fill in at their pulpit because their elderly pastor had serious health problems. My husband spoke to them about merging with our church, but they refused.

Recently another church's band came to our church Sunday night and played an evening of praise and worship for us free of charge, just to be a blessing. And coming up, our church will be going into the inner city to help another church pick up its neighborhood. It's so fun to be able to help others instead of seeing them as "competition."

That's why I love you guys! I wish were were closer in proximity. Lord willing I am going to come vist one of these days.

[TomK]

(04-06-2011 11:44 PM)pastors wife Wrote:  It's so fun to be able to help others instead of seeing them as "competition."

I whole-heartedly agree. There are only 4 churches in my remote town of 2,000 and we often work together. I was a road-block to that in the past, but the last few years God has melted my Fundy heart. Thank you, Jesus.

[Don]

(04-06-2011 11:49 PM)TomK Wrote:  @Don

The context of the "Education isn't biblical" statement is Tony R's remark

Quote:And since when did undergraduate school and seminary become biblical qualification to be a pastor?

to which the obvious answer is that it isn't a qualification. It is wise, not biblically required. Please disagree with me in context, not out of context.

I live in southern Cal, not in the rusty Bible belt. I grew up in Phoenix, one of America's most unchurched cities. I'm sure my perspective would be different if I lived in the land of member-swapping churches, but I live in the land of few churches. In the west, pastors have little Power and there are more than enough unchurched to go around.

But even in your neck of the woods you have a prime example of the Acts 4:13a pastor there in Az. with Steven Anderson. I agree that God can use anyone of any education level, age, or background. Ephesians chapter 4 makes that abundantly clear. But who would serve Phoenix better a well trained Bible teacher that can actually exposit the word of God.... or Stevie Anderson?

I agree that all of this is in God's hands, but having seen the disaster that the self-called, self-anointed, uneducated hacks have created I find listening to somone who is trained and educated, and gifted to preach/teach a breath of fresh air to my soul.

And I do agree with you that we have very different background experiences that we draw from. (btw, from the way I read it, the "Education comment" looked like it was standing alone as its own statement so that is the context which I took it, and why I ran with it. )

[TomK]

(04-07-2011 12:11 AM)Don Wrote:  I agree that all of this is in God's hands, but having seen the disaster that the self-called, self-anointed, uneducated hacks have created I find listening to somone who is trained and educated, and gifted to preach/teach a breath of fresh air to my soul.

I agree 100%. Education is a passion of mine. I can't stand ignorant preaching or preachers. I'm up late tonight working on my master's class (which I don't get paid to work on).

[leaving]

(04-06-2011 11:49 PM)TomK Wrote:  @Don

The context of the "Education isn't biblical" statement is Tony R's remark

Quote:And since when did undergraduate school and seminary become biblical qualification to be a pastor?

to which the obvious answer is that it isn't a qualification. It is wise, not biblically required. Please disagree with me in context, not out of context.

I live in southern Cal, not in the rusty Bible belt. I grew up in Phoenix, one of America's most unchurched cities. I'm sure my perspective would be different if I lived in the land of member-swapping churches, but I live in the land of few churches. In the west, pastors have little Power and there are more than enough unchurched to go around.

Bull. California has some of the biggest fundie churches and colleges in the country. There is lots of power. It's a fundie thing.