Is Tithing Biblical?

[pastor's wife]

@leaving, I'm sorry if you thought I said the church should pay for a pastor's car, house, etc. My point was that these are all things that must be paid for out of the pastor's income, and a church that thinks $10,000 a year is going to cut it is dreaming.

Ideally, church wouldn't be a country club with lots of "programs" to keep the members busy and happy. Unfortunately, most people who go to church today want the attention of a pastor that he absolutely wouldn't have time to give if he's working a 40 hour week. Most people want their pastor to visit EVERY time they're sick, for example, or give them one-on-one counseling any time they ask. (I'm talking about smaller churches; I've never belonged to a large one.) If church members were visiting each other and caring for each other and if there were a plurality of elders in leadership, one man wouldn't have to bear the burden of all the members' expectations.

I'm sorry you haven't seemed to have any experience with godly, gentle, humble, hard-working pastors. They're out there. I'm sorry that you assumed that I was saying pastors were above the rest of the general population. I wasn't. A pastor is to be like Christ and is to be a servant of all.

[leaving]

(04-06-2011 10:45 AM)TomK Wrote:  

(04-06-2011 10:32 AM)leaving Wrote:  We really need to provide him a house for standing up and delivering one to three sermons a week? And a car? Really? Most people know that they need to provide these things for themselves. My husband works very long hours to provide those things for us, a pastor can do the same.

It's just not that hard, and pastors aren't above the rest of the general population.

I work 50+ hours a week as a pastor. The idea that a pastor gets paid to deliver a few sermons is a myth.

I don't get paid for studying if I want to go to college, in fact, I have to pay FOR the privilege. If you are working 50 hours a week in your pastoral duties then your church has taken on too much. It doesn't matter what people "expect" they don't need to be visited every time they are sick. Your church doesn't need tons of programs. Yeah, sometimes people need counseling. But if you are counting all that "studying" time as "work" then forget it.

I've often thought that maybe God should "call" us to the ministry. We'd be living high then for less work than we do now!

[pblawman]

(04-06-2011 10:32 AM)leaving Wrote:  I don't see anywhere in the New Testament where the pastors or elders were paid by the church. They had regular jobs. A pastor is a servant, no better or with a higher social status than anyone else, and should have his own job to support his family. Pastors in other countries do it very well, it's the US pastors that seem to think they are entitled to being paid by others to read, study and deliver a sermon. The rest of us have to pay if we want to to study, not the other way around.

Actually, I do see it in the New Testament. Paul actually defended it.

Quote:[9 :1] Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord? [2 ] If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
[3 ] This is my defense to those who would examine me. [4 ] Do we not have the right to eat and drink? [5 ] Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? [6 ] Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living? [7 ] Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard without eating any of its fruit? Or who tends a flock without getting some of the milk?
[8 ] Do I say these things on human authority? Does not the Law say the same? [9 ] For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.” Is it for oxen that God is concerned? [10 ] Does he not speak entirely for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. [11 ] If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? [12 ] If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we even more?
Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ.
(1 Corinthians 9:1-12 ESV)

Yes the pastor is a servant. But the fact that he is getting compensated for his service to the flock doesn't give him a higher social status. Paul used the same illustration elsewhere to make the same point.

Quote:[17 ] Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. [18 ] For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.”
(1 Timothy 5:17-18 ESV)

While it's true in some countries (and some areas of this country), the pastor must resort to "tentmaking" to feed his family, that doesn't mean that it's not biblical for a flock to pay its pastor. We do that so that he can have more time to give to the study of the word (which is a ministry to us), and for other areas of ministry, including counseling.

leaving Wrote:I've often thought that maybe God should "call" us to the ministry. We'd be living high then for less work than we do now!

I know you probably meant that tongue in cheek, but sentiments like that bring this passage to mind:

Quote:[3 :1] The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. [2 ] Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, [3 ] not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. [4 ] He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, [5 ] for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? [6 ] He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7 ] Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.
(1 Timothy 3:1-7 ESV)

[leaving]

I haven't personally been under any pastor who wasn't a "lover of money". They think they are so entitled to live so much better than everyone else, and on everyone else's dime to boot.

[pblawman]

(04-06-2011 12:07 PM)leaving Wrote:  I haven't personally been under any pastor who wasn't a "lover of money". They think they are so entitled to live so much better than everyone else, and on everyone else's dime to boot.

That's very sad. And having sat under a similar type, I can understand the resentment. Personally, I think a Pastor should be paid well so that he isn't burdened with the pressures of finances as he seeks to minister. I think it becomes obvious when the Pastor is being motivated by greed or desiring prestige. My current pastors all live humbly and give back to the ministry far more than they receive. I'm thankful for that.

[leaving]

(04-06-2011 12:15 PM)pblawman Wrote:  

(04-06-2011 12:07 PM)leaving Wrote:  I haven't personally been under any pastor who wasn't a "lover of money". They think they are so entitled to live so much better than everyone else, and on everyone else's dime to boot.

That's very sad. And having sat under a similar type, I can understand the resentment. Personally, I think a Pastor should be paid well so that he isn't burdened with the pressures of finances as he seeks to minister. I think it becomes obvious when the Pastor is being motivated by greed or desiring prestige. My current pastors all live humbly and give back to the ministry far more than they receive. I'm thankful for that.

But yes, I was definitely kidding about my comment on being called to Pastor. I hope one day to be under one where it is different, that would be ice. I know plenty that expected you to give above and beyond the tithe for their new iMac, or iPhone, or their new van because a used one wasn't good enough, and neither were used clothes, and not only did clothes have to be new but name brand. They also go on vacation a couple times a year to really, really nice places.

Deep down I know they are not all like that I'm looking forward to hopefully being under one like that.

[pastor's wife]

(04-06-2011 12:11 PM)Donb123 Wrote:  He then said that if he worked extra hours and was in someone's house in the evening and chatting with them about their problems and gave them advice they didn't like then they'd quit giving or quit attending. So for him working extra hours might mean LESS money.

This just happened a couple weeks ago to my husband. It's pretty discouraging.

[leaving]

It's not as if the pastors salary varies from week to week. He can, however, get a pay raise or a pay cut...like anybody else...it's not just a pastor persecution thing.

[TomK]

@leaving - Sorry to hear that you've had bed experiences. It is hard to not let those jade your opinions of all churches and pastors.

Two of the first priorities for most churches are 1) A place to gather. A valid priority considering house churches experience serious limitations.
2) Someone/s committed to teaching/leading the group. Also, a valid priority considering the limitations of distracted leadership.

The question of this thread is where does the money come from.

Solution #1: Enforce the Old Testament tithe and teach that this is expected of all members. It seems the SFL community is in agreement that this is not a biblical model.

Solution #2: People giving willingly. This is practiced all through Scriptural history and used in a variety of ways. Funding local worship is one of the most common. In this model people are not coerced, tracked, or guilted. They give because they love Jesus and want to support their church ministry. Using our finances to further the kingdom of God has a wealthy of Scriptural support and considering the prominence of the church in the New Testament, I consider church a worthy investment of my money into God's kingdom. For me, it is a joy to give.

[Tony R]

(04-06-2011 10:32 AM)leaving Wrote:  I don't see anywhere in the New Testament where the pastors or elders were paid by the church. They had regular jobs. A pastor is a servant, no better or with a higher social status than anyone else, and should have his own job to support his family. Pastors in other countries do it very well, it's the US pastors that seem to think they are entitled to being paid by others to read, study and deliver a sermon. The rest of us have to pay if we want to to study, not the other way around.

Insurance would be taken care of if a pastor has a regular job. If not, he can do what other families do and purchase his own insurance. If he doesn't have insurance, that's his fault. Or he might qualify for Medicaid. The pastors kids can go to public school like everyone else, that's relatively free. He doesn't need to be snotty and send his kids to some expensive private school and claim it's a "need". A lot of things people think are "needs" in this country are not.

A pastor can purchase or rent his own house like everyone else is expected to. We really need to provide him a house for standing up and delivering one to three sermons a week? And a car? Really? Most people know that they need to provide these things for themselves. My husband works very long hours to provide those things for us, a pastor can do the same.

It's just not that hard, and pastors aren't above the rest of the general population.

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!