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**redbeardiam** · 07-19-2012, 10:20 PM

(07-19-2012 10:14 PM)Historian Wrote: Why should you get to decide what rate of tax other people should pay? Are you under the impression that they did not earn their money? Did my brother take out a mortgage on your house to invest in his own business?

So, should every American decide for himself how much he'll pay in taxes?

squiz · 07-20-2012, 05:12 AM

(07-19-2012 09:57 AM)Bob M Wrote:
(07-19-2012 08:03 AM)greg Wrote: I hear ya, and I would agree were his religion not a cult, in other words if he was in any mainline denomination, or no religion at all, I think I could vote for him, but not a cult.

Well, then you are in effect voting for Obama. Would you rather have Obama, who is a Muslim, for 4 more years?

I thought this was a good joke, but then I read some of your other posts. I think I'll add you to my whacko list.

squiz · 07-20-2012, 05:17 AM

(07-19-2012 09:45 PM)Bob M Wrote:
(07-19-2012 09:40 PM)Trapped Pentecostal Wrote: Marriage was a part of many cultures for many thousands of years before the Bible was even written. It's not some Biblical invention. Sorry, the argument has no traction to anyone that doesn't already believe in the Bible as the ultimate authority on everything.

It is a Christian argument. I believe the Bible is the only 100% reliable authority in the universe.

Why do you believe that? I mean, where did this belief come from?

**Scorpio** · 07-20-2012, 06:53 AM

(07-19-2012 09:37 PM)Bob M Wrote: If you look at the link, the sermon is printed and provided in audio and video.

Main points.......

Sorry Bob. That sermon is not alliterated. Therefore it is not from God. Big Grin

bean · 07-20-2012, 07:11 AM

You asked what I thought it should be. Remember?
Did your brother build a business in a land that is secure with good infrastructure, an educated populace, and reliable water supplies, and an electric grid that can be relied upon?

There comes a cost with this stuff. I love all the "I did this.Myself.Pulled myself up by my own bootstraps and goterdone." talk...Because I'd like to see it in a country like Liberia or Sierra Leone. All this stuff costs money. It's also called contributing to the greater good. None of these success stories would be possible without a common good. Factories build snowmobiles and four wheelers near where I live, and that's awesome. They ship their products on roads built by the state and federal government. They are staffed with people who have been provided an education by the government. When expansion projects are considered, government tax abatements or financing are usually one of the first things that come up.

Historian, you're not listening. The 90 year old lady where I live STILL doesn't need an ID to deal with the bank or stay at a hotel.

Assume she does. Assume she doesn't have 8 nickels to rub together. The nearest place to "get" an ID is 30 miles away. How does she get there? How does she have a birth certificate from 1923? (I bet you'll tell me she should go online and get it!)

Our voting system as it is--is very fair. You can register on the same day. You already need some form of ID proving you are who you say you are...unless someone can vouch for your identity and residence. A utility bill with your name on it will also work to prove your status as a resident.

It is onerous. Minnesota Public Radio did an entire segment the other day filled with stories about how this will make voting near impossible for tens of thousands of elderly and college students. It's not necessary. Look up the percentage of election fraud. It's a non-issue.

We had ONE case in 2008. A guy released from prison and was working in his hometown. He was supposed to meet with his probation officer. He left a message telling the p.o he was going to vote, and he would meet with him that evening. Nobody told him his civil rights had not been restored. They threw the book at him for voting as a felon.

He thought that voting was something responsible people did and was something he was going to do on his path to becoming a responsible citizen.

So yeah, that's the level of "election fraud!" we see around here. Not much....

(07-19-2012 10:14 PM)Historian Wrote: I doubt military cuts will do much, since our military hasn't been the highest spending percentage of our GDP since 1975. It stayed just under "entitlement" spending until the early 90's, when it took a nosedive. Now entitlements are about 10% and military only about 5%, and entitlements are set to soar under Obamacare. We could dump all our national defense and still never pay for entitlements, which is an awful new word for what used to be known as "charity."

Why should you get to decide what rate of tax other people should pay? Are you under the impression that they did not earn their money? Did my brother take out a mortgage on your house to invest in his own business?

I'm also curious about where you live that none of the old people around you have bank accounts, take flights, stay in hotels, visit any government buildings or go to see doctors–all of which require ID. Do you also believe that the TSA should cease requiring ID from passengers on planes? Should people be able to open bank accounts without identification? Are the elderly in your area so overwhelmingly busy in their retirement that they can't go down and get a free ID card? And college kids can get a local ID and vote in the state where they currently reside, or vote by abesntee ballot if they desire. Or they can drive home. None of these choices are onorous to a free and responsible people.

bean · 07-20-2012, 07:17 AM

And a word about "entitlements" or "charity"

Let's do it your way. Let's tell all the senior citizens who have paid in their entire lives to go do it themselves. No more checks.

Let's quit paying health care costs on the mentally disabled. They can go live under a rock.

Let's tell the young family who the breadwinner was laid off from the factory job paying 12 bucks an hour to go figure it out. I'm sure they'll be fine.

Let's tell the kids whose parents are broke the school lunch program is gone. They might complain about the food but they sure eat it every day. For some breakfast and dinner at school are the only decent meals they get.

I'm done being sarcastic now.

07-20-2012, 08:00 AM

(07-20-2012 05:17 AM)squiz Wrote:
(07-19-2012 09:45 PM)Bob M Wrote: It is a Christian argument. I believe the Bible is the only 100% reliable authority in the universe.

Why do you believe that? I mean, where did this belief come from?

It is a well developed theology over many years, 2 Master's degrees and 15 years studying the Bible in ministry. That is where it came from. Since you are an Atheist in religious conviction, I doubt if I took the time and spelled all the details out that it would make any difference with you.

bean · 07-20-2012, 08:05 AM

Bob, I can respect your views and still hold ones that are different. You probably won't totally "convince me" but I see where you are coming from.

07-20-2012, 08:11 AM

(07-20-2012 08:05 AM)bean Wrote: Bob, I can respect your views and still hold ones that are different. You probably won't totally "convince me" but I see where you are coming from.

I respect him too, but when an Atheist challenges me to prove to him that the Bible is the Authority, it is a waste of my time and I try to spell out why I don't go into details.

Trapped Pentecostal · (This post was last modified: 07-20-2012 08:22 AM by Trapped Pentecostal.)

Sorry, Bob. The Constitution is not based on the Bible. And you can't make laws that everyone must follow just because you think they're Biblical. That's no different than what Muslims do in countries that enforce sharia law.

I'll also add that if you are going to declare the Bible as the ultimate authority over both Christians and non-Christians, then the burden is on you to prove why it is authoritative, and why any law should be based upon it.