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TruthSeeker · 07-12-2012, 06:17 PM

This view about the blood of Christ by some fundamentalists is not new. The source of much of this thinking was generated by a man named J.A. Bengel. He was born in 1687 and he died in 1752. He originally propounded what has become known as the Bengelian theory of the blood of Christ. He propounded the theory that in the suffering and death of Christ His blood was totally poured out so that not one single drop remained in His body. And he taught that this blood was then eternally preserved from all corruption.

He further taught that this blood shed from Christ totally so no drop was left in Him was never restored to the vascular system of Christ's resurrected body. So he had a bloodless resurrection body. "But rather," he says, "at the ascension, the blood that had been shed and preserved was carried by Christ outside His body into the heavenly sanctuary and there it was deposited." And he uses Hebrews 9:12. In fact, quoting from Bengel, he says, "Christ kept his blood apart from his body. His body was bloodless but living." How can he prove that Jesus had a bloodless resurrection body?

Well he mentions the vision of the heavenly Christ in Revelation 1:4. Do you remember that vision? The vision of Christ in Revelation 1,4 and following? Describes Christ as the one who stands ministering in the church and John sort of unfolds that vision and he sees Him and he sees in verse 14...an interesting statement..."And His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow." And Bengel says, "The whiteness of His head describes Him as bloodless." Others have said, trying to help Bengel make his point, that there is a passage in Luke 24 verse 39, Jesus said, after his resurrection, "See My hand and feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." And they say, "You see it says flesh and bones. Jesus says, "Touch me, feel Me." A spirit doesn't have flesh and bones. But he didn't say flesh and blood." So by silence He is saying that He is flesh and bones and no blood. That's a silly way to reason, by the way. He didn't say He had hair either. He had that. He said flesh and bones. He didn't mention hair, he didn't mention nails, he didn't even mention skin. And by the way normal flesh and normal bones exists because in them both is what? Is blood.

TruthSeeker · 07-12-2012, 06:31 PM

IFB's teachings on the blood of Chirst:

1. The blood of Christ was not human blood. It was supernatural blood, the blood of God. - Acts 20:28

2.Since it was supernatural blood and not the blood of man, but the blood of God it is, therefore, eternal and incorruptible. - 1 Peter 1:18

3. Its eternal and incorruptible condition and state it was taken to heaven at the time of the ascension of Christ, some of them say, it was taken to heaven where it remains forever in heaven contained in some vessel. - Hebrews 9:12

4. The blood of Christ is perpetually and continually being poured out on some heavenly mercy seat for the forgiveness of sins. - Hebrews 12:24

5. References to the blood of Christ then in the New Testament are not symbols for His atoning work, they are not symbols for His sacrificial death, they refer specifically to His blood. (Not all references to blood are literal...what do you do with John 6? and the Lord's Supper?)

These are the proof texts but when looking carefully at their proper context we see these texts do not support the 5 points above on the blood of Christ.

greg · 07-12-2012, 07:28 PM

(07-12-2012 05:54 PM)Don Wrote: greg, you still have not addressed the points brought up earlier, and you have totally sidestepped the humanity of Jesus issue, and now you are deflecting to another topic. That is not deep discussion, that is deflection, and misdirection to change the subject to avoid the most glaring problem with your position.

1. Is Jesus in all points human just as we are yet without the sin nature?
2. Did Jesus have a human body that functioned just like every other human in history or are you, in fact, claiming that Jesus was something other than human?

If his blood was not human and humanly derived then you are saying Jesus was not Human. That needs to be answered greg.

Not deflecting at all, you haven't touched many of my questions, I was just trying to end the discussion peacefully, and continue to make people think. I will answer your questions with questions, much like my Savior often did.

1. Does your blood or anyone's blood but Jesus' justify us? Redeem us? Forgive us? Cleanse us? Make us victorious, but mostly does any other human blood save us? Is your blood precious? Do you carry in your veins imperishable blood? Is your blood in Heaven, and has your blood been in Heaven for all time?

2. Can your human body or anyone else's body walk on water? Appear and vanish at will? Was there ever another person that had God, Creator of the Universe for a Father? Was there ever another person who could feed 5,000 with a few loaves and fish?

Yes Jesus was a man, and He was also God in the flesh!

greg · 07-12-2012, 07:51 PM

(07-09-2012 09:41 PM)ThatsWhatItSays Wrote: Leviticus 16: 14 He is to take some of the bull’s blood and with his finger sprinkle it on the front of the atonement cover; then he shall sprinkle some of it with his finger seven times before the atonement cover.

15 He shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and take its blood behind the curtain and do with it as he did with the bull’s blood: He shall sprinkle it on the atonement cover and in front of it. 16 In this way he will make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been. He is to do the same for the tent of meeting, which is among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 No one is to be in the tent of meeting from the time Aaron goes in to make atonement in the Most Holy Place until he comes out, having made atonement for himself, his household and the whole community of Israel.

Leviticus 16:27 The bull and the goat for the sin offerings, whose blood was brought into the Most Holy Place to make atonement, must be taken outside the camp; their hides, flesh and intestines are to be burned up.

Before we discuss the humanity/divinity of Christ, and the nature of his blood, can we at least agree that his blood had to appear in heaven in order for our sins to be forgiven? It is clear that the blood does not just refer to the death of Christ, seeing as blood was actually used beyond merely being spilled to accomplish the sacrifice. It was presented AFTER the sacrifice was made.

I've quoted the verse several times now and it doesn't seem like anyone is still getting it. I read Don's answer,and he still doesn't get it. Let's look at the verses again.

Hebrews 8:1-5 "The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man. Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already men who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. (These things are based on what was already in Heaven! Got it!) This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: 'See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain'"

Yes the blood did have to appear in Heaven and did! (W/out the shedding of blood there is no remission for sins, always, always, always) How many more scriptures do we need to quote? But get this, and this is the real mysterious stuff, the blood was there before Jesus died on the cross, don't ask me to explain it, I can't, I can't explain the Trinity either. But the bible clearly speaks of the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world. When Moses was instructed about building the tabernacle he had to make it "according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."

Don · (This post was last modified: 07-12-2012 10:27 PM by Don.)

(07-12-2012 07:28 PM)greg Wrote:
(07-12-2012 05:54 PM)Don Wrote: greg, you still have not addressed the points brought up earlier, and you have totally sidestepped the humanity of Jesus issue, and now you are deflecting to another topic. That is not deep discussion, that is deflection, and misdirection to change the subject to avoid the most glaring problem with your position.

1. Is Jesus in all points human just as we are yet without the sin nature?
2. Did Jesus have a human body that functioned just like every other human in history or are you, in fact, claiming that Jesus was something other than human?

If his blood was not human and humanly derived then you are saying Jesus was not Human. That needs to be answered greg.

Not deflecting at all, you haven't touched many of my questions, I was just trying to end the discussion peacefully, and continue to make people think. I will answer your questions with questions, much like my Savior often did.

1. Does your blood or anyone's blood but Jesus' justify us? Redeem us? Forgive us? Cleanse us? Make us victorious, but mostly does any other human blood save us? Is your blood precious? Do you carry in your veins imperishable blood? Is your blood in Heaven, and has your blood been in Heaven for all time?
1a: No. But the blood was not the propitiation, the sacrifice was and since the life is in the blood then the blood of Jesus was made effective for atonement by his perfect sacrifice. Otherwise Jesus could have merely pricked his finger and sprinkled his blood and pronounced sin atoned for.

Is my blood precious? Yes it is. That is the whole point of the blood sacrifice system that the life is in the blood. Innocent blood cries out to God for recompense. Have you not read of Manasseh and the shedding of innocent blood in Jerusalem? Did Abel's blood not cry out to God? God deems blood as a very precious thing.

Those last two are conjecture and not provable with scripture that there is any sacrificial blood in heaven.

2. Can your human body or anyone else's body walk on water? Appear and vanish at will? Was there ever another person that had God, Creator of the Universe for a Father? Was there ever another person who could feed 5,000 with a few loaves and fish?
Non-sequitur. His humanness would not be mutualy exclusive, or a hinderence, to his divine abilities.

Yes Jesus was a man, and He was also God in the flesh! On this we are in complete agreement. Jesus was both 100% man and 100% God

That'sWhatItSays · 07-12-2012, 08:52 PM

To be fair, greg, I think the Lamb slain "from" the foundation of the world (in most translations) refers to the sacrifice that God had ordained and chosen before the world, not that the Lamb was slain before the creation of the world. That is to say, the lamb slain has always been God's intention since before we fell, but now is it made manifest with its fulfillment for all to see. Still an amazing concept, but I don't believe that the blood existed in heaven before Christ came to be slain. That's how I read it.

Referring back to Calvinism and the ESV, they really change Revelation 13:8 from the other versions.

KJV : And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

NIV : All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

ESV : and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

As far as Bengel is concerned, never heard of him or of the need for every drop to be poured out, etc...(that is speculation). I Corinthians 15:50-54 teaches a bloodless resurrection body to most readers, however.

greg · 07-13-2012, 10:24 AM

(07-12-2012 08:52 PM)ThatsWhatItSays Wrote: To be fair, greg, I think the Lamb slain "from" the foundation of the world (in most translations) refers to the sacrifice that God had ordained and chosen before the world, not that the Lamb was slain before the creation of the world. That is to say, the lamb slain has always been God's intention since before we fell, but now is it made manifest with its fulfillment for all to see. Still an amazing concept, but I don't believe that the blood existed in heaven before Christ came to be slain. That's how I read it.

Referring back to Calvinism and the ESV, they really change Revelation 13:8 from the other versions.

KJV : And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

NIV : All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

ESV : and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

As far as Bengel is concerned, never heard of him or of the need for every drop to be poured out, etc...(that is speculation). I Corinthians 15:50-54 teaches a bloodless resurrection body to most readers, however.

Tks for pointing out the difference in the ESV, I had seen that before, but I don't like that rendering whatsoever!

I disagree with you on the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" I tend to take things more literal, and I do take this literally. If someone does believe like I do, it is admittedly staggering to our tiny, finite minds. This takes us back before time began, this goes back into the life and soul and bosom of the eternal, triune God. Yep it's deep! I believe the events which are going to happen in this world far into the future are to God established facts that have already happened so he can say.

"For He chose us in him before the creation of the world to be Holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will" Eph 1:4-6

These things are not easy for our minds to grasp, but the bible tells us that Jesus would speak things to us that have been "secret" since time began. Matthew 13:35 "...I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world"

Not to veer off into calvinism, but things which are in the future are already settled events to God. I believe He was able to call, choose, elect, and predestinate those who would be His children from the foundation of the world because the Lamb of God had already been slain from the foundation of the world. This is where folks like MarArthur, Piper and others take people down a wrong theological trail. They confuse "real" Bible predestination, election, choosing, and calling with the man-made theology of calvinism. This doctrine has God "choosing" folks to salvation whether they want to be saved or not, and sending folks to hell without even giving them a chance/choice. There just simply isn't anything like that in the scripture, that's why I continuously point to the fact that calvinism must be taught to you. Always remember predestination of who would be lost or saved is based on God's FOREKNOWLEDGE of who would repent and put their faith in Christ, and who would not. That is exactly what the scriptures proclaim:

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son....." Romans 8:29

Salvation is always to whosoever will (Acts 10:43, Romans 10:13, Rev 22:17) Man absolutely has a choice to repent and receive Christ or not (Joshua 24:15, John 3:18-20, John 5:40)

The saved are simply the whosever wills the lost are the whosever won'ts!

Let's go back once again before time began and have a look at this PRECIOUS blood of Christ!

"For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake." 1 Peter 1:18-19

Don · (This post was last modified: 07-13-2012 12:03 PM by Don.)

(07-13-2012 10:24 AM)greg Wrote: Tks for pointing out the difference in the ESV, I had seen that before, but I don't like that rendering whatsoever!

I disagree with you on the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" I tend to take things more literal, and I do take this literally. If someone does believe like I do, it is admittedly staggering to our tiny, finite minds. This takes us back before time began, this goes back into the life and soul and bosom of the eternal, triune God. Yep it's deep! I believe the events which are going to happen in this world far into the future are to God established facts that have already happened so he can say.

"For He chose us in him before the creation of the world to be Holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will" Eph 1:4-6

These things are not easy for our minds to grasp, but the bible tells us that Jesus would speak things to us that have been "secret" since time began. Matthew 13:35 "...I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world"

Not to veer off into calvinism, (But you did anyway) but things which are in the future are already settled events to God. I believe He was able to call, choose, elect, and predestinate those who would be His children from the foundation of the world because the Lamb of God had already been slain from the foundation of the world. That is precisely what the doctrines of Grace state. This is where folks like MarArthur, Piper and others take people down a wrong theological trail. They confuse "real" Bible predestination, election, choosing, and calling with the man-made theology of calvinism. This doctrine has God "choosing" folks to salvation whether they want to be saved or not, and sending folks to hell without even giving them a chance/choice. Again with the caricature and misapplication. Amazing, in one breath you say that to God it is a done deal from before the beginning of the world and you quote Ephesians 1, "He chose us in him before the creation of the world to be Holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will." That passage clearly shows it is the will of God and not the will of man... but then you turn around and limit God to doing man's will. Incredible.

Your statement :
Quote:This doctrine has God "choosing" folks to salvation whether they want to be saved or not, and sending folks to hell without even giving them a chance/choice.
Where do you get that doctrine from greg? You do understand that if God did nothing, absolutely nothing at all, then all of mankind would naturally face hell, eternal separation from God. You do understand that none is good, no, not one? There is no such thing as a choice between heaven and hell, we are all deserving of hell and that is where we will end up unless God intervenes in our life. We are dead to God in our sin and children of the Prince of Darkness unless God does a work of grace in our hearts. Oh, my heart aches that there are those who cannot see this and continually preach that God is subject to man's choice and man's will. God is not subject to a deadman's choice or a deadman's will. Go to the valley of dry bones. Which of those dry bones can choose to live? Which of those dry bones can hear the gospel? Who then brings life to the dry bones?

There just simply isn't anything like that in the scripture, that's why I continuously point to the fact that calvinism must be taught to you. Always remember predestination of who would be lost or saved is based on God's FOREKNOWLEDGE of who would repent and put their faith in Christ, and who would not. That is exactly what the scriptures proclaim: "
Quote:
If we assume that God's knowledge of the future is true (which evangelicals all agree upon), then it is absolutely certain that person A will believe and person B will not. There is no way their lives could turn out any differently than this. Therefore it is fair to say that their destinies are still determined, for they could not be otherwise. But by what are their destinies determined? If they are determined by God himself, then we no longer have election based ultimately on foreknowledge of faith, but rather on God's sovereign will. But if these destinies are not determined by God, then who or what determines them? Certainly no Christian would say that there is some powerful being other than God controlling people's destinies. Therefore the only possible alternative is to say they are determined by some impersonal force, some kind of fate, operative in the universe, making things turn out as they do. But what kind of benefit is this? We have then sacrificed election in love by a personal God for a kind of determinism by an impersonal force and God is no longer to be given the ultimate credit for our salvation
" (Systematic Theology, p. 679). -Wayne Grudem

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son....." Romans 8:29

Salvation is always to whosoever will (Acts 10:43, Romans 10:13, Rev 22:17) Man absolutely has a choice to repent and receive Christ or not (Joshua 24:15, John 3:18-20, John 5:40)

The saved are simply the whosever wills the lost are the whosever won'ts! WRONG! talk about a man made doctrine. com'on greg now you are just plain making stuff up. the whosoever wont's?? really?? How can you back that up?

Let's go back once again before time began and have a look at this PRECIOUS blood of Christ!

"For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake." 1 Peter 1:18-19 Ok, here is a question for you. Was Jesus Christ chosen before the creatiion of the world to be the sacrifice for the atonement of sin... or did God look through time and see that Jesus would choose to be the sacrifice for sin?

That'sWhatItSays · 07-13-2012, 12:42 PM

Salvation is a meeting of the minds. I will always hold to that view. It is not strictly according to God's random will to regenerate some in order that they might come to belief, and it is not strictly according to the choice of man.

"But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it (the heart!) shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." II Corinthians 3:15-17

greg, it's not that I don't take the scripture literally, it's that I believe the grammatical structure and other scriptures teach that Christ shed his blood "in time" and that this act had an effect in heaven. I don't know if things are real until they happen, I guess. God continually speaks to man based on the situation at hand, not based on what God knows. Thus, we have passages such as Genesis 6:6 -

And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

I believe Christ was the ordained sacrifice from before the foundation of the world. I don't believe the incarnate Christ's blood "existed" in heaven until Christ was slain. I believe Satan is still alive and well and not already cast out of heaven, for instance. A similar controversy is the "eternal Sonship of Christ". Let's get into that one next, yay!

greg · (This post was last modified: 07-13-2012 01:24 PM by greg.)

Don - God's knowing that I "chose" to accept Him by his "foreknowledge" is in no way shape or form similar to the false teaching of John Calvin, that Jesus only died for the "elect!" That is false teaching plain and simple! Jesus Christ died for all! For whosever will! Again, I can fill up pages of verses to demonstrate this point, just let me know, and I'll start typing. "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2

(All calvinists say we don't understand calvinism, but isn't limited atonement "Christ's redeeming work that was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them.?) Do I have this right? Ok, that's not true at all based on the entire bible, and particularly 1 John 2:2. Just to hammer it in further, as does the whole bible, but Romans 5:18 in particular:

"Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."

Don, how many men did that one act of righteousness bring life for?

Not some, not just the elect, not just the good ones. That one act of rightesousness brought life for A L L !! How could Calvin possibly dream up the stuff he dreamed up with passages like this in the scripture, and then, how could simple men follow along behind him in this dead-end, non-biblical, outright false teaching!

Again onto the Ephesians passage. Remember this is clearly speaking to those who were saved already. v-1 "to the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:"

The Ephesians passage, Eph 1:3-7, does not show it is the will of God and NOT the will of man - it is demonstrating that the PLAN our Sovereign God put into place to save man is what is "in accordance to his pleasure and will." If you don't want to believe that, all you have to do is look down a few more verses, in Ephesians and see "His plan."

Eph 1:11-13 "In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the PLAN of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. "

(pls watch this everyone, when were (they/we) included in this PLAN?)

v-13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth," (wait, I wasn't included until then?) "the gospel of your salvation. Having believed," (hey isn't that something that I've got to do?) "you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit." (btw this is the way everyone must get saved)

Does God "KNOW" who is going to come to Him? Absolutely! But what must we do? (Nothing, we are dead, totally depraved, why how can dead men do anything?) Don't mind John Calvin, listen to what the Living Word of God says to you! These good Ephesians were not included in Christ (UNTIL they heard the word of truth, which is the gospel of their and our salvation, then what? They believed!!!!! That is something that we "DO" folks, then what happened? They were marked with the Holy Spirit. This PLAN is precisely how we all get saved, you weren't picked a million years ago to be saved, God knew you would accept Him a million years ago, based on His foreknowledge, but that in no way "forced" you to accept Him, that is not in the bible, that kind of mess must be taught by men. "This" is the "PLAN" that our Sovereign God put into place that is in accordance to His pleasure and will.

Remember to base your faith on the scriptures, not on what any man, including me, has to say about those words.

Here is real, bible predestination:

"For those God foreknew he also predestined..." Romans 8:29