Threaded Mode | Linear Mode

exIFB · 03-03-2011, 01:15 PM

(03-03-2011 01:08 PM)chris1000bc Wrote:
(03-03-2011 12:10 PM)greg Wrote: First off, God doesn't hate anyone,

Psalm 11:5 (NIV)
" The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked, those who love violence, he hates with a passion."

Psalm 5:5 (NIV)
"The arrogant cannot stand in your presence. You hate all who do wrong;"

In what way does he hate? Is it like a human hatred, a revengeful attitude toward someone who has done you wrong, or is it more like a strong dislike?

God is love, so we must understand that in his hate, there is still love, much more than we can comprehend. Also, did Jesus mean for us to hate our parents, or are we reading our own modern understanding watered down understanding of the word into the Bible

eg. Reading "The Power of the BLood Covenent" is goes into detail about the word "friend". We think of a friend as a chum, a pal, a buddy. The Bible word for friend is often used to describe two people who have made a covenant. Hence, Abraham was the friend of God. We think that they were just best buds, hanging out together, which may, hopefully be true Smile

, but it means much more. It means that God, as a friend of Abraham, was bound by covenant to keep the covenant promise to Abraham.

That's got nothing to do with the discussion here, but perhaps we are misunderstanding the word.

chris1000bc · 03-03-2011, 01:27 PM

(03-03-2011 01:10 PM)exIFB Wrote: Yeah, I'm not seeing eternal punishing in those verses. Also, Paul's letters to gentile churches are shockingly absent of warnings about eternal punishing in hell. Even Hebrews, where there are several warnings for the Jews, warns of a fire that will consume. If we are to follow Paul, as he followed Christ, why does our preaching not match his? Even on Mars Hill, there is no hellfire and brimstone. Hellfire and brimstone preaching seems only reserved for the religious Pharisees.

So you are saying that Jesus and Paul dealt with different audiences in different ways? To the pharisees, Christ preached hellfire and brimstone, but to other non-pharisaical audiences Paul did not?

I just read the blog post. I think it is funny how the person only shows one side of the situation. Sure, God will judge evil doers, but doesn't the blogger realize where this puts them (if that is all that God will do)? Why would they leave out the good news?

exIFB · (This post was last modified: 03-03-2011 01:32 PM by exIFB.)

And yeah, I'm saying that. If you can show me where Paul preached hellfire...

What do you mean? Leave out the good news?

chris1000bc · 03-03-2011, 01:57 PM

(03-03-2011 01:15 PM)exIFB Wrote: Also, did Jesus mean for us to hate our parents, or are we reading our own modern understanding watered down understanding of the word into the Bible

I think you make a good point about Christ's meaning in that instance being different than how one would normally think. So, like you say, God may mean something else when it is said in these passages that he hates evil doers.

My point in quoting the verses is that it may not be correct to say that there is no sense in which God hates anyone. Because from those verses, it appears that in some sense he hates evil doers. I don't disagree that this does not prevent him from in some sense loving evil doers as well.

chris1000bc · 03-03-2011, 02:05 PM

(03-03-2011 01:31 PM)exIFB Wrote: What do you mean? Leave out the good news?

I mean that I just read the blog post that Robin provided when she started this thread. The blogger mentions several groups of people that God hates, and seems to leave it at that. In that post, I did not see any mention of the gospel (good news).

I think that it is wrong to give someone all of that bad news (whether she is right or wrong in her interpretation), and never mention the gospel. Did she come to faith on bad news alone? I doubt it.

greg · 03-03-2011, 02:10 PM

(03-03-2011 01:08 PM)chris1000bc Wrote:
(03-03-2011 12:10 PM)greg Wrote: First off, God doesn't hate anyone,

Psalm 11:5 (NIV)
" The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked, those who love violence, he hates with a passion."

Psalm 5:5 (NIV)
"The arrogant cannot stand in your presence. You hate all who do wrong;"

I was just attempting to answer the question about Hell. I could say alot of things about these two OT verses, even going back to the original languages, its not a battle I wish to fight today, but suffice it to say that our God is not a creature of time, and for these two OT verses I can give hundreds of whosoever wills.

chris1000bc · 03-03-2011, 02:22 PM

(03-03-2011 02:10 PM)greg Wrote: I was just attempting to answer the question about Hell. I could say alot of things about these two OT verses, even going back to the original languages, its not a battle I wish to fight today, but suffice it to say that our God is not a creature of time, and for these two OT verses I can give hundreds of whosoever wills.

I don't think these verses in any way discount any "whosoever wills" verses you might bring up. But like I said before, I don't think whoever has the most verses to defend their position wins. I don't care if you can give me a thousand "whosoever will" verses, these verses are still in the Bible. And in some way you and I have to make sense of it. I don't think these verses in some way support Calvinism. So please, don't misunderstand my meaning. I think there are verses like this in the Bible that are hard for any of us to understand. Another example for me would be 1 Kings 22:23 which talks about God putting a "lying spirit" in the mouths of the prophets of King Ahab.

greg · 03-03-2011, 02:28 PM

(03-03-2011 01:10 PM)exIFB Wrote: Yeah, I'm not seeing eternal punishing in those verses. Also, Paul's letters to gentile churches are shockingly absent of warnings about eternal punishing in hell. Even Hebrews, where there are several warnings for the Jews, warns of a fire that will consume. If we are to follow Paul, as he followed Christ, why does our preaching not match his? Even on Mars Hill, there is no hellfire and brimstone. Hellfire and brimstone preaching seems only reserved for the religious Pharisees.

I must say you are surprising me, you usually stand up for the Word of God, and have, what I thought was a good understanding of it. You sound quite abit like someone else here (who shall remain nameless) that picks and chooses what they want to believe from scriptures. Our bible teaches "clearly" that there is a heaven to gain and a Hell to shun, I sound like a fundy preacher now, but anyway surely you must know this!

I will tell you and all who read this, that there are mountains of scripture to support a literal, burning, awful, terrifying, everlasting Hell, there is no ambiguity whatsoever, and again I'm shocked you didn't know this.

exIFB · 03-03-2011, 02:50 PM

(03-03-2011 02:05 PM)chris1000bc Wrote:
(03-03-2011 01:31 PM)exIFB Wrote: What do you mean? Leave out the good news?

I mean that I just read the blog post that Robin provided when she started this thread. The blogger mentions several groups of people that God hates, and seems to leave it at that. In that post, I did not see any mention of the gospel (good news).

I think that it is wrong to give someone all of that bad news (whether she is right or wrong in her interpretation), and never mention the gospel. Did she come to faith on bad news alone? I doubt it.

Oh, my mistake. I thought you meant the blog post I posted, which was nothing but the good news!

exIFB · 03-03-2011, 02:58 PM

(03-03-2011 02:28 PM)greg Wrote:
(03-03-2011 01:10 PM)exIFB Wrote: Yeah, I'm not seeing eternal punishing in those verses. Also, Paul's letters to gentile churches are shockingly absent of warnings about eternal punishing in hell. Even Hebrews, where there are several warnings for the Jews, warns of a fire that will consume. If we are to follow Paul, as he followed Christ, why does our preaching not match his? Even on Mars Hill, there is no hellfire and brimstone. Hellfire and brimstone preaching seems only reserved for the religious Pharisees.

I must say you are surprising me, you usually stand up for the Word of God, and have, what I thought was a good understanding of it. You sound quite abit like someone else here (who shall remain nameless) that picks and chooses what they want to believe from scriptures. Our bible teaches "clearly" that there is a heaven to gain and a Hell to shun, I sound like a fundy preacher now, but anyway surely you must know this!

I will tell you and all who read this, that there are mountains of scripture to support a literal, burning, awful, terrifying, everlasting Hell, there is no ambiguity whatsoever, and again I'm shocked you didn't know this.

I know what I was taught at my evangelical church and my fundy church. I don't see mountains of evidence to support eternal torment. I see two verses in revelation. In the Old Testament I see eternal death, and destruction from his presence. I see the saints in Isaiah looking upon dead carcasses (not living people). I see the wicked being consumed by his wrath. I am not denying the existence of hell, I am just considering the possibility that the punishing and torment is not eternal.

I also differentiate between Heaven, Paradise, Hell and the Lake of Fire. Always have. Heaven is eternal, Paradise was temporal. Hell is temporal and the Lake of Fire, in my previous understanding, was eternal. People are in hell now (ie, the Rich man), but they will be brought up out of hell, judged according to their works and thrown into the lake of fire- this is the second death.

But all I said was there was nothing in those verse you posted that said that the Lake of Fire was eternal torment. So I would say there are two "clear" verses that do teach this, in revelation, and one could argue that the only people eternally tormented are those that worship the beast and take his mark. The other verses in scripture could be understood to be everlasting destruction with fire. Suffering and then extinction. I'm not saying I believe in annihilation. I am just being honest about where I am at right now.