Exodus International gets a clue.

[Ricardo]

(07-11-2012 08:26 PM)leaving Wrote:  so if I claim to believe the Bible then I need to believe even the parts I don't like.

That is the problem with claiming a man-written document is the final authority on God.

My God is way bigger than the bibles. I cannot worship a god who believes in scorched Earth policies, in killing men, women and children for the sins of a few, who would support an invading hoard of three million invaders to kill millions of residents of Palestine simply because eighty relatives used to live there two hundred years earlier, but left when the going got tough. I cannot worship a God who is portrayed as the angry husband abusing his whore of a wife.

How is it that some Christians want us to believe only a specific style of interpretation of a specific text, of a specific canon, when good solid Christian scholars cannot agree on what canon to declare as "the bible," which actual Greek words to declare as the correct ones, and how to interpret specific passages?

It is absolutely crazy that the denominations that most stress how each one of us should have a personal relationship with God are precisely the same ones that want to control EXACTLY what that relationship will consist of...

If there is a discrepancy between the God I have a personal relationship with and the god described in these ancient books, I'm sorry, I'm not dropping God.

[redbeardiam]

Leaving, thank you for sharing your story with such grace.

[leaving]

(07-11-2012 10:28 PM)Ricardo Wrote:  

(07-11-2012 08:26 PM)leaving Wrote:  so if I claim to believe the Bible then I need to believe even the parts I don't like.

That is the problem with claiming a man-written document is the final authority on God.

My God is way bigger than the bibles. I cannot worship a god who believes in scorched Earth policies, in killing men, women and children for the sins of a few, who would support an invading hoard of three million invaders to kill millions of residents of Palestine simply because eighty relatives used to live there two hundred years earlier, but left when the going got tough. I cannot worship a God who is portrayed as the angry husband abusing his whore of a wife.

How is it that some Christians want us to believe only a specific style of interpretation of a specific text, of a specific canon, when good solid Christian scholars cannot agree on what canon to declare as "the bible," which actual Greek words to declare as the correct ones, and how to interpret specific passages?

It is absolutely crazy that the denominations that most stress how each one of us should have a personal relationship with God are precisely the same ones that want to control EXACTLY what that relationship will consist of...

If there is a discrepancy between the God I have a personal relationship with and the god described in these ancient books, I'm sorry, I'm not dropping God.

I believe the purpose of the Bible is to lead us to Jesus and into a relationship with him. I don't necessarily take everything literally, because the Bible was written over many years, by many people, in different cultures, with different literary styles. Take the creation story for instance, yes I believe God created all things but that he probably used evolution in his creative process, and I don't think that does any injustice to the Biblical account at all.

All that to say, I have tried to find many different interpretations of passages such as Romans 1, looked at it from multiple angles, but in order to be true to myself and true to what I read and understand, my understanding from that is that homosexuality is a sin. You have no idea how often I wished that away, but it was not to be.

[Trapped Pentecostal]

Leaving, I thank you for sharing and for opening yourself up like this, since I know it couldn't have been easy to do so. I have delayed replying to your post because I wanted to say a few things, but I don't want them to come off as dismissive or condescending. If anything I say right now comes across that way, then please forgive me in advance.

Dramaturge mused earlier in this thread about how many of the "success" stories from Exodus International were actually bisexual, and while these people had primarily self-identified as homosexual, they were far enough toward the other end of the spectrum to be convinced to self-identify as heterosexual. Reading your story, leaving, I also wonder if you are also actually bisexual (or at least not exclusively homosexual), and this is why you have been "successful" in moving away from homosexuality and maintaining a heterosexual marriage. Please don't feel you need to respond to this thought one way or another, as it's certainly a more personal discussion than I wish to have with you. It's just something that I would like for you to take into consideration, and feed into your understanding of why you have been able to stay in a heterosexual marriage; it wasn't the grace of God that allowed this, it was simply the fact that you weren't born exclusively homosexual. Had you been born exclusively homosexual, your story would have been very different, since someone who is exclusively homosexual wouldn't be able to do what you have done just because "I read the Bible and it says homosexuality is a sin" or "as part of his creation, God didn't want that for me."

I also think greg has used you in an attempt to prove himself right, which I find to be a despicable, loathsome act on his part. I think he has sweet-talked you into telling your story so that he can point and say, "See! See! I'm not a stupid bigot! Gays can switch over! And here's proof!" This puts my respect for greg, which was already pretty low, right into the toilet. Greg has no understanding that human sexuality falls along a spectrum from exclusively heterosexual to exclusively homosexual, with all kinds of variation between the two extremes. To greg, the world is either 100% gay or 100% not gay, and the ones that are 100% gay can just switch over with the right attitude. He doesn't understand that a little prayer and reading some Bible verses won't turn someone who is exclusively homosexual into someone who is exclusively heterosexual, or vice versa. He doesn't understand that an exclusively homosexual person couldn't be convinced to be attracted to the opposite sex any more than I could be convinced to be attracted to the same sex. Greg has attempted to take your story, which is in no way typical, and use it to attempt to prove his own point.

[Naomi]

(07-11-2012 08:26 PM)leaving Wrote:  The whole thing is complicated. I am sexually attracted to my husband now, and I love him. I always loved him, always thought he was cute, but had to work on the attraction part. Like I said earlier, it's complicated.

Your experience is not that uncommon! It definitely fits within Lisa Diamond's research on women's orientations in Sexual Fluidity. Many women have a less fixed orientation than many men seem to have (neither by choice), although there has not been enough of this type of research on men to really make that claim.

Thank you for sharing your experience!

[leaving]

(07-12-2012 09:58 AM)Trapped Pentecostal Wrote:  Leaving, I thank you for sharing and for opening yourself up like this, since I know it couldn't have been easy to do so. I have delayed replying to your post because I wanted to say a few things, but I don't want them to come off as dismissive or condescending. If anything I say right now comes across that way, then please forgive me in advance.

Dramaturge mused earlier in this thread about how many of the "success" stories from Exodus International were actually bisexual, and while these people had primarily self-identified as homosexual, they were far enough toward the other end of the spectrum to be convinced to self-identify as heterosexual. Reading your story, leaving, I also wonder if you are also actually bisexual (or at least not exclusively homosexual), and this is why you have been "successful" in moving away from homosexuality and maintaining a heterosexual marriage. Please don't feel you need to respond to this thought one way or another, as it's certainly a more personal discussion than I wish to have with you. It's just something that I would like for you to take into consideration, and feed into your understanding of why you have been able to stay in a heterosexual marriage; it wasn't the grace of God that allowed this, it was simply the fact that you weren't born exclusively homosexual. Had you been born exclusively homosexual, your story would have been very different, since someone who is exclusively homosexual wouldn't be able to do what you have done just because "I read the Bible and it says homosexuality is a sin" or "as part of his creation, God didn't want that for me."

I also think greg has used you in an attempt to prove himself right, which I find to be a despicable, loathsome act on his part. I think he has sweet-talked you into telling your story so that he can point and say, "See! See! I'm not a stupid bigot! Gays can switch over! And here's proof!" This puts my respect for greg, which was already pretty low, right into the toilet. Greg has no understanding that human sexuality falls along a spectrum from exclusively heterosexual to exclusively homosexual, with all kinds of variation between the two extremes. To greg, the world is either 100% gay or 100% not gay, and the ones that are 100% gay can just switch over with the right attitude. He doesn't understand that a little prayer and reading some Bible verses won't turn someone who is exclusively homosexual into someone who is exclusively heterosexual, or vice versa. He doesn't understand that an exclusively homosexual person couldn't be convinced to be attracted to the opposite sex any more than I could be convinced to be attracted to the same sex. Greg has attempted to take your story, which is in no way typical, and use it to attempt to prove his own point.

I knew what I was getting myself into when I chose to post my story. I don't think that Greg expected me to post my story at this point in time, if ever. I think that Greg actually understands more than you think he does, because I have had a private discussion with him. I have said some not nice things about Greg in the past, including calling him a troll just recently, and I wanted people to know that he had treated me very decently. He acted in a Christlike manner towards me and showed me grace as my brother in Christ, more grace than I have previously shown him. I wanted people to see that while Greg might be against homosexuality, Greg is not cruel to people who have been there. I don't believe that Greg exploited me for his own personal gain, if I had thought that I would not have posted. However, even if he did, it's not really for me to judge his motives. I'm trying to learn to show people the same grace that I want to be given, and to not jump to conclusions about their motives when the truth is that I really don't have any idea what their motives are. Greg is really just trying to be true to how he sees Scripture, and while I think that he's often wrong, all you can really do is ask someone to live what they believe.

I'm really not interested in arguing so I think in that respect we are on the same page. I told my story knowing that some would accept it and some would not. I even knew that some would insult my intelligence and tell me that I didn't know who I was, that I "must have been" bisexual or whatever. It's not up to me to change what people think about my story, it's just up to me to share it when God asks me to. Which is the real reason I shared it, because it doesn't matter how much anyone would have encouraged me to share it, unless I felt like God could use it for something, I would not have shared it. There has been many discussions before on here about homosexuality where I have not shared. It just felt like the right time and place.

All I would say is please be aware that those of us who have been there do know ourselves, know who we were, what we were born as. I don't believe in any of the kinds of therapies that Exodus has until now pushed on people. I do, however, believe in the power of God. I was close to becoming an agnostic at best, maybe even an atheist. But I could not get away from what Jesus had done for me. From what I read I gather that you don't believe in God at all, and so both of us are coming from different viewpoints and I have no intention of arguing long and loud about it. I will continue to share my story, and people can do with it what they will.

My responsibility was to share my story. What people choose to do with it is up to them.

[Trapped Pentecostal]

(07-12-2012 10:18 AM)leaving Wrote:  ...Greg is not cruel to people who have been there.

Well, of course not. If you tell him that you're not "there" anymore, he'll be thrilled to be nice to you. If you told him you are still a homosexual, he'd keep railing on about the "filthy," "sinful," "immoral" "lifestyle," and he wouldn't want anything to do with you.

[redbeardiam]

(07-12-2012 09:58 AM)Trapped Pentecostal Wrote:  To greg, the world is either 100% gay or 100% not gay, and the ones that are 100% gay can just switch over with the right attitude.

Actually, if you read his response to me earlier in the thread, he doesn't even believe in gay sexual orientation the way most of us understand it.

Quote:I very seriously doubt that homosexuals are "oriented" that way. I think just as the quote in Romans says "that wicked men "suppress" the truth (the truth being, they aren't oriented to be homosexual) by their wicked behaviour." They become acclimated or desensitzed to this sin, and then they eventually tell themselves that this is the way they were designed.

Can people's orientation lean toward homosexual? I think not, but I could be wrong.

He is generously willing to admit he might be wrong.

[Trapped Pentecostal]

(07-12-2012 11:25 AM)redbeardiam Wrote:  

(07-12-2012 09:58 AM)Trapped Pentecostal Wrote:  To greg, the world is either 100% gay or 100% not gay, and the ones that are 100% gay can just switch over with the right attitude.

Actually, if you read his response to me earlier in the thread, he doesn't even believe in gay sexual orientation the way most of us understand it.

Quote:I very seriously doubt that homosexuals are "oriented" that way. I think just as the quote in Romans says "that wicked men "suppress" the truth (the truth being, they aren't oriented to be homosexual) by their wicked behaviour." They become acclimated or desensitzed to this sin, and then they eventually tell themselves that this is the way they were designed.

Can people's orientation lean toward homosexual? I think not, but I could be wrong.

He is generously willing to admit he might be wrong.

Good point. To greg, the world is made up of people that are 100% percent heterosexual, people that can't accept that they're 100% heterosexual, and people that willfully refuse to be 100% heterosexual.

[Ricardo]

"why you have been able to stay in a heterosexual marriage;"

I wonder if there are any statistics about actual sex in marriage. Studies about how many married couples have not had sex in years or for that matter, ever.
EDIT: I mean happy, stable, solid marriages. The number of happy couples where due to sickness or age or simply lack of interest, there is no sex.

Shall we prohibit marriages among ninety year old couples? (Unless they can prove they can "consummate" the marriage?)

AND, we HAVE TO come up with a definition of what we mean by "homosexual."

Greg's "lifestyle" definition would seem to imply that whatever your self-image may be, whatever temptations you may have, you are NOT gay unless you actually do the sex act.

So, two men who love each other and live together IN SEPARATE BEDROOMS, technically would not qualify as homosexuals or as sinners.

And if Leaving never acted on her attraction for women, then, in God's eyes, she is cool!

Right?