Exodus International gets a clue.

[Bob M]

(07-11-2012 03:51 PM)Trapped Pentecostal Wrote:  

(07-11-2012 03:33 PM)Bob M Wrote:  You are putting words in my mouth. I typed one verse.

But, as you said, that verse was pretty clear. If I had been a real Christian, then I would still be a Christian. If God didn't think I should be a Christian even though I thought I was, then I guess I wasn't "of us."

I tried to choose God, but as you yourself said, I wasn't transformed. Since I can't transform myself, then that part would be up to God. If God didn't transform me, then I wasn't one of the elect.

Calvinism.

I'm happy for you that God chose to transform you. Congratulations on being in his elect.

I don't know if I am.

[Trapped Pentecostal]

(07-11-2012 03:52 PM)Bob M Wrote:  

(07-11-2012 03:51 PM)Trapped Pentecostal Wrote:  But, as you said, that verse was pretty clear. If I had been a real Christian, then I would still be a Christian. If God didn't think I should be a Christian even though I thought I was, then I guess I wasn't "of us."

I tried to choose God, but as you yourself said, I wasn't transformed. Since I can't transform myself, then that part would be up to God. If God didn't transform me, then I wasn't one of the elect.

Calvinism.

I'm happy for you that God chose to transform you. Congratulations on being in his elect.

I don't know if I am.

So why follow someone if you don't know that you're actually "in"? If it's possible to not know if you're part of the elect, what guarantee do you have that you're saved in the first place? If I tried to choose God, but he didn't care to have me be "transformed," who's to say that many people who think they're saved actually aren't? Why devote yourself to someone/something that may or may not care, and could change his/its mind at any moment?

I spent twenty years thinking I was really a Christian. Now you're telling me I never was. How do you know you won't suffer the same fate?

[Bob M]

(07-11-2012 03:57 PM)Trapped Pentecostal Wrote:  

(07-11-2012 03:52 PM)Bob M Wrote:  I don't know if I am.

So why follow someone if you don't know that you're actually "in"? If it's possible to not know if you're part of the elect, what guarantee do you have that you're saved in the first place? If I tried to choose God, but he didn't care to have me be "transformed," who's to say that many people who think they're saved actually aren't? Why devote yourself to someone/something that may or may not care, and could change his/its mind at any moment?

I spent twenty years thinking I was really a Christian. Now you're telling me I never was. How do you know you won't suffer the same fate?

I believe I am, but I do not know and I will not know until I die. But that is my own personal take on it. There are people who would condemn me for not "knowing."

[Trapped Pentecostal]

(07-11-2012 04:00 PM)Bob M Wrote:  

(07-11-2012 03:57 PM)Trapped Pentecostal Wrote:  So why follow someone if you don't know that you're actually "in"? If it's possible to not know if you're part of the elect, what guarantee do you have that you're saved in the first place? If I tried to choose God, but he didn't care to have me be "transformed," who's to say that many people who think they're saved actually aren't? Why devote yourself to someone/something that may or may not care, and could change his/its mind at any moment?

I spent twenty years thinking I was really a Christian. Now you're telling me I never was. How do you know you won't suffer the same fate?

I believe I am, but I do not know and I will not know until I die. But that is my own personal take on it. There are people who would condemn me for not "knowing."

I would never buy a car without some guarantee that it was safe and in good condition, or for that matter, if there wasn't evidence that the car I was buying even exists. I would never buy a house sight unseen, or, at the very least, without some pretty convincing evidence that the house exists. Likewise, I won't buy into heaven and spend the rest of my life schmoozing some deity without some pretty convincing evidence that the deity and heaven both actually exist. As it is, I feel I've spent a large chunk of my life living for a total fabrication that promised some payoff that was probably also a total fabrication. How do you think that feels? Why should I ever devote any more of my time to someone or something that has shown no evidence of existing?

[Bob M]

(07-11-2012 04:07 PM)Trapped Pentecostal Wrote:  

(07-11-2012 04:00 PM)Bob M Wrote:  I believe I am, but I do not know and I will not know until I die. But that is my own personal take on it. There are people who would condemn me for not "knowing."

I would never buy a car without some guarantee that it was safe and in good condition, or for that matter, if there wasn't evidence that the car I was buying even exists. I would never buy a house sight unseen, or, at the very least, without some pretty convincing evidence that the house exists. Likewise, I won't buy into heaven and spend the rest of my life schmoozing some deity without some pretty convincing evidence that the deity and heaven both actually exist. As it is, I feel I've spent a large chunk of my life living for a total fabrication that promised some payoff that was probably also a total fabrication. How do you think that feels? Why should I ever devote any more of my time to someone or something that has shown no evidence of existing?

There is plenty of evdence. "The heavens declare the glory of God and the sky above proclaims his handiwork."

[Ricardo]

Bob M,

If God spoke to Balaam through an ass, he most definitely can speak to us through Trapped. Or through Greg, or through me. or through you.

Jesus could have torn apart the theological errors of the Samaritan. Instead, he used him as an example of God's love.

Don't worry about Trapped. God has invested too much effort training him to run the sound booth at the church and other things, to let him slip away quietly. You have kids? Is there a limit to the number of times you would forgive your kids before you disown them? How much more our Heavenly Father?

But don't hold your breath. Not only will Trapped have to spend some time dealing with all this, but IF he were to come back, it most definitely NOT be to his FatherinLaw's church, in fact may not be to a congregation you would recognize as "Christian." Fortunately, God is much bigger than the biblical boxes you want to keep Him in.

[Bob M]

(07-11-2012 04:37 PM)Ricardo Wrote:  Bob M,

If God spoke to Balaam through an ass, he most definitely can speak to us through Trapped. Or through Greg, or through me. or through you.

Jesus could have torn apart the theological errors of the Samaritan. Instead, he used him as an example of God's love.

Don't worry about Trapped. God has invested too much effort training him to run the sound booth at the church and other things, to let him slip away quietly. You have kids? Is there a limit to the number of times you would forgive your kids before you disown them? How much more our Heavenly Father?

But don't hold your breath. Not only will Trapped have to spend some time dealing with all this, but IF he were to come back, it most definitely NOT be to his FatherinLaw's church, in fact may not be to a congregation you would recognize as "Christian." Fortunately, God is much bigger than the biblical boxes you want to keep Him in.

I think you misunderstand me. I am not worried about him, but I do care. And I am doing this much differently than I did on Christian forums in my fundy days. I used to be arrogant and brash and rude. I would have said something boorish. My heart truly goes out to Trapped. I went through a couple years after I left Fundyville where I wrote God off and did my own thing. I was disowned by my family. My oldest son did not speak to me for over a year. There are still reverberations. But God continued to pursue me. I am not anywhere near like I was before. I feel something of what he is going through.

[Trapped Pentecostal]

(07-11-2012 04:33 PM)Bob M Wrote:  There is plenty of evdence. "The heavens declare the glory of God and the sky above proclaims his handiwork."

That's a really easy thing for someone to write (both for you and the original author), but it doesn't actually prove anything.

[lucrezaborgia]

(07-11-2012 06:49 AM)leaving Wrote:  I don't really understand WHY it's a sin or why God would be against it, and I have tried many times to try to explain it away and I just can't.

Not every Christian believes this is a sin.

Quote:I also love my husband and my children. I do believe I was born this way, but I believe that I can live in victory through Christ and don't have to give in to it.

...but your orientation has not changed, correct?

Quote:I was not born into God's family as a lesbian, I was born into God's family destined to be the person he wants to craft me into. So honestly, maybe "ex-gay" is the right label after all, since I'm now born again into God's family and am a new creation now. We all struggle with our flesh, but we do not have to live according to the flesh, we can live by the spirit.

Do you think every homosexual should do this? It's not a cure. Many homosexuals have done this over the years because it was expected of them by society. I could not be married to someone I wasn't sexually attracted to or if they weren't attracted to me.

[leaving]

(07-11-2012 07:59 PM)lucrezaborgia Wrote:  

(07-11-2012 06:49 AM)leaving Wrote:  I don't really understand WHY it's a sin or why God would be against it, and I have tried many times to try to explain it away and I just can't.

Not every Christian believes this is a sin.

True, but from my reading of Scripture, I believe it is a sin. I wish it weren't so. I tried twisting it every which way and rationalizing it and came up empty, so if I claim to believe the Bible then I need to believe even the parts I don't like.

(07-11-2012 07:59 PM)lucrezaborgia Wrote:  

(07-11-2012 06:49 AM)leaving Wrote:  I also love my husband and my children. I do believe I was born this way, but I believe that I can live in victory through Christ and don't have to give in to it.

...but your orientation has not changed, correct?

Not really, although I am attracted to my husband now, it's complicated.

(07-11-2012 07:59 PM)lucrezaborgia Wrote:  

(07-11-2012 06:49 AM)leaving Wrote:  I was not born into God's family as a lesbian, I was born into God's family destined to be the person he wants to craft me into. So honestly, maybe "ex-gay" is the right label after all, since I'm now born again into God's family and am a new creation now. We all struggle with our flesh, but we do not have to live according to the flesh, we can live by the spirit.

Do you think every homosexual should do this? It's not a cure. Many homosexuals have done this over the years because it was expected of them by society. I could not be married to someone I wasn't sexually attracted to or if they weren't attracted to me.

I didn't say that everyone should, I simply told my story. People have to do what they believe is right. The whole thing is complicated. I am sexually attracted to my husband now, and I love him. I always loved him, always thought he was cute, but had to work on the attraction part. Like I said earlier, it's complicated. If he wasn't in my life I think it would be much harder. You say that it's not a "cure" and technically yes I am still attracted to women, however, God is the great physician so who am I to say he can't cure people completely of it? I must say that the more I walk in truth, the easier it gets.