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**Scorpio** · 07-05-2012, 02:31 PM

(07-05-2012 02:19 PM)Don Wrote: He knows the plans he has for you my friend.

I believe that sums it up nicely. Thanks Don.

**myotch** · 07-05-2012, 02:34 PM

(07-05-2012 11:00 AM)FmrMarine Wrote: [quote='myotch' pid='105637' dateline='1341503767']
How is it unconvincing? Why won't god heal Down's Syndrome? It doesn't make sense if you think he heals other conditions. I guess the only answer for a Christian would be "I don't know." The answer for the non-believer is much simpler: "god doesn't heal down's syndrome because he doesn't exist." Without fail, if you remove the ambiguity of healing (unless you decide to redefine healing in certain situations) as is the case with amputees or Down's Syndrome, god fails everytime.

Perhaps your case would be better made if I were making stronger points on supernatural healing. Which I don't, necessarily.

I think that faith in God's healing powers, optimism, etc. play a part in how we heal.

FmrMarine · 07-05-2012, 02:39 PM

(07-05-2012 02:19 PM)Don Wrote:
(07-05-2012 11:44 AM)Scorpio Wrote: Don, I know I cannot go toe-to-toe with you regarding what Scripture may say about this so I won't even try. But based on my personal experiences I do not think I can agree with that.
I look back at some of the hardest times in my life (someone very sick and dying, employment issues etc.) and that is when God showed me his grace the most. I may have not recognized it at the time. And during those times I didn't meet the qualifications of a believer, other than "yeah I believe there is a god somewhere and if you are there, here is my prayer".
So even in my dis-belief, I prayed. And I never knew how God answered any of my prayers until years later. Maybe this is just that "touchy personal feelings" stuff that was frowned upon in the IFB, but I know what I went through. And I also know where I am now.
So in my mind, God has either been at work in my life for a long long time or everything is just a big coincidence. And maybe it is more complex than that. It's just what I feel.

Like the man said, "Lord I believe, help my unbelief."

God Moves in Mysterious Ways

God moves in a mysterious way,
His wonders to perform;
He plants his footsteps in the sea,
And rides upon the storm.

Deep in unfathomable mines
Of never failing skill,
He treasures up his bright designs,
And works his sovereign will.

Ye fearful saints, fresh courage take,
The clouds ye so much dread
are big with mercy, and shall break
In blessings on your head.

Judge not the Lord by feeble sense,
But trust him for his grace;
Behind a frowning providence,
He hides a smiling face.

His purposes will ripen fast,
Unfolding every hour;
The bud may have a bitter taste,
But sweet will be the flower.

Blind unbelief is sure to err,
And scan his work in vain;
God is his own interpreter,
And he will make it plain.

Wm Cowper

He knows the plans he has for you my friend.

He knows the plans? Well there are about 6 million jews who would like to have a word because I think they are really pissed about god's plan for them. I guess people can stop bitching about abortion too since it's part of god's plan. And the little girl in Florida, who was recently raped an murdered, she might take exception to god's plan for her. Why doesn't god heal amputees? Because he is imaginary. Why does god allow little girls to be raped and murdered? Because he is imaginary. Why did god allow millions of people to be gassed to death during the holocaust? Because he is imaginary. The arrogance of the "blessed" is astounding. We have good, decent people praying for healing of loved ones with cancer yet they die a slow and often agonizing death. God sits that one out. But the ac on your car gave out? God will answer the call!

07-05-2012, 02:49 PM

(07-05-2012 02:39 PM)FmrMarine Wrote:
(07-05-2012 02:19 PM)Don Wrote: Like the man said, "Lord I believe, help my unbelief."

God Moves in Mysterious Ways

God moves in a mysterious way,
His wonders to perform;
He plants his footsteps in the sea,
And rides upon the storm.

Deep in unfathomable mines
Of never failing skill,
He treasures up his bright designs,
And works his sovereign will.

Ye fearful saints, fresh courage take,
The clouds ye so much dread
are big with mercy, and shall break
In blessings on your head.

Judge not the Lord by feeble sense,
But trust him for his grace;
Behind a frowning providence,
He hides a smiling face.

His purposes will ripen fast,
Unfolding every hour;
The bud may have a bitter taste,
But sweet will be the flower.

Blind unbelief is sure to err,
And scan his work in vain;
God is his own interpreter,
And he will make it plain.

Wm Cowper

He knows the plans he has for you my friend.

He knows the plans? Well there are about 6 million jews who would like to have a word because I think they are really pissed about god's plan for them. I guess people can stop bitching about abortion too since it's part of god's plan. And the little girl in Florida, who was recently raped an murdered, she might take exception to god's plan for her. Why doesn't god heal amputees? Because he is imaginary. Why does god allow little girls to be raped and murdered? Because he is imaginary. Why did god allow millions of people to be gassed to death during the holocaust? Because he is imaginary. The arrogance of the "blessed" is astounding. We have good, decent people praying for healing of loved ones with cancer yet they die a slow and often agonizing death. God sits that one out. But the ac on your car gave out? God will answer the call!

I do not know the reasons why God does not rescue the Jews who were gassed, or the little girl, or the aborted babies. But I do know this. God loved the world enough to send his son to die for our sins, and if you believe in him, you can have eternal life.

When I get to heaven, I will spend an eternity asking God to show me his majesty, and how he allowed all this suffering, and how it is for his glory and our good.

FmrMarine · 07-05-2012, 02:56 PM

(07-05-2012 10:59 AM)Zadig Wrote:
(07-05-2012 10:45 AM)FmrMarine Wrote: Why does god have special rules for amputees? Why must their healing never be physical unlike people who claim physical healing from cancer, pnuemonia, etc. ? Christians who pray get sick and die at the same rate as everyone else in accordance with the laws of probability. Prayer has no effect. If 20 Christians get a very serious form of cancer with a 5 percent remission rate and they all pray for healing, one of them is going to think his prayer worked, the others will be dead and their prayers were not answered.

Although your argument on this example is valid, there is some evidence that prayer and medication does assist in healing and overall health by lengthening telomeres in the body's DNA. If prayer reduces stress and anxiety, there is a physiological benefit that can be measured.

Actually, in an article in the Boston Globe, Alice Dembner, tackled this subject. Her piece is called "A prayer for health." The studies she found and cited showed no correlation between prayer and healing. Those who prayed and those who did not experienced the same outcomes statistically.

FmrMarine · 07-05-2012, 03:09 PM

(07-05-2012 02:49 PM)Bob M Wrote:
(07-05-2012 02:39 PM)FmrMarine Wrote: He knows the plans? Well there are about 6 million jews who would like to have a word because I think they are really pissed about god's plan for them. I guess people can stop bitching about abortion too since it's part of god's plan. And the little girl in Florida, who was recently raped an murdered, she might take exception to god's plan for her. Why doesn't god heal amputees? Because he is imaginary. Why does god allow little girls to be raped and murdered? Because he is imaginary. Why did god allow millions of people to be gassed to death during the holocaust? Because he is imaginary. The arrogance of the "blessed" is astounding. We have good, decent people praying for healing of loved ones with cancer yet they die a slow and often agonizing death. God sits that one out. But the ac on your car gave out? God will answer the call!

I do not know the reasons why God does not rescue the Jews who were gassed, or the little girl, or the aborted babies. But I do know this. God loved the world enough to send his son to die for our sins, and if you believe in him, you can have eternal life.

When I get to heaven, I will spend an eternity asking God to show me his majesty, and how he allowed all this suffering, and how it is for his glory and our good.

The reason he didn't save the Jews is the same reason he didn't save any of the victims of genocide in Africa or Bosnia. He doesn't exist. The reason he didn't save the raped and murdered little girl is the same reason he doesn't save any children who end up raped and murdered. He doesn't exist. When you get the point where you acknowledge this the fog begins to clear and you can stop trying to rationalize a god that does not fit with the data you collect every day.

07-05-2012, 03:22 PM

(07-05-2012 03:09 PM)FmrMarine Wrote:
(07-05-2012 02:49 PM)Bob M Wrote: I do not know the reasons why God does not rescue the Jews who were gassed, or the little girl, or the aborted babies. But I do know this. God loved the world enough to send his son to die for our sins, and if you believe in him, you can have eternal life.

When I get to heaven, I will spend an eternity asking God to show me his majesty, and how he allowed all this suffering, and how it is for his glory and our good.

The reason he didn't save the Jews is the same reason he didn't save any of the victims of genocide in Africa or Bosnia. He doesn't exist. The reason he didn't save the raped and murdered little girl is the same reason he doesn't save any children who end up raped and murdered. He doesn't exist. When you get the point where you acknowledge this the fog begins to clear and you can stop trying to rationalize a god that does not fit with the data you collect every day.

I am certain he exists. and my heart breaks for you as you loudly proclaim his non-existence. One day you will see that he loves you and I hope it is not eternally too late.

WanderingTraveler · 07-05-2012, 03:25 PM

Here is what it comes down to for me. I believe in God. I believe God created all that there is. He allowed sin to come into the world. When a person is healed by what seems to be natural means, that is because God initially created it to be that way. He created our bodies to fight infection, but because of sin, this system is imperfect and flawed. Because of sin, this doesn't always work. Case in point, Downs Syndrome. It is a genetic mutation, a breaking down of what was originally created good and perfect, but marred by sin. Death and illness is a natural consequence of sin. The Bible says that all mankind was affected by Adam's sin. Does that seem fair? No, but that is how it is. But then again, does it seem fair that one man, Christ, took the punishment for all mankind? No, but that is how it is.

Just because God doesn't do a miracle that makes us stop in our tracks and wonder what just happened doesn't mean that He not working or answering.

The reason why he doesn't keep bad things from happening to people or doesn't answer prayer the way we would like is because before we can accept that He is God, we have to recognize our need for Him.

If you live your life thinking that what you see in front of you is all that there is, then yes, you are going to have a worldview that teaches you to see God as a vengeful God who takes pleasure in seeing people suffer. If you live your life realizing that it is your soul He is out to save and this mortal world mean nothing, your worldview teaches you to see everything, the good and the bad, as God revealing how much you need Him. It could come in the form of something bad happening to you, or something bad happening to someone else.

Like Elfdream said, God never, anywhere in His Word, told us life would be easy.

FmrMarine · 07-05-2012, 03:35 PM

(07-05-2012 03:25 PM)WanderingTraveler Wrote: Here is what it comes down to for me. I believe in God. I believe God created all that there is. He allowed sin to come into the world. When a person is healed by what seems to be natural means, that is because God initially created it to be that way. He created our bodies to fight infection, but because of sin, this system is imperfect and flawed. Because of sin, this doesn't always work. Case in point, Downs Syndrome. It is a genetic mutation, a breaking down of what was originally created good and perfect, but marred by sin. Death and illness is a natural consequence of sin. The Bible says that all mankind was affected by Adam's sin. Does that seem fair? No, but that is how it is. But then again, does it seem fair that one man, Christ, took the punishment for all mankind? No, but that is how it is.

Just because God doesn't do a miracle that makes us stop in our tracks and wonder what just happened doesn't mean that He not working or answering.

The reason why he doesn't keep bad things from happening to people or doesn't answer prayer the way we would like is because before we can accept that He is God, we have to recognize our need for Him.

If you live your life thinking that what you see in front of you is all that there is, then yes, you are going to have a worldview that teaches you to see God as a vengeful God who takes pleasure in seeing people suffer. If you live your life realizing that it is your soul He is out to save and this mortal world mean nothing, your worldview teaches you to see everything, the good and the bad, as God revealing how much you need Him. It could come in the form of something bad happening to you, or something bad happening to someone else.

Like Elfdream said, God never, anywhere in His Word, told us life would be easy.

I don't see god as vengeful or taking pleasure in suffering. Although one could get that impression from reading the bible... but that's another story. I don't see evidence for his existence at all. When I was a believer I created evidence. I rationalized away the things that didn't make sense and made excuses for god.

~~Zadig~~ · 07-05-2012, 04:29 PM

(07-05-2012 02:56 PM)FmrMarine Wrote:
(07-05-2012 10:59 AM)Zadig Wrote: Although your argument on this example is valid, there is some evidence that prayer and medication does assist in healing and overall health by lengthening telomeres in the body's DNA. If prayer reduces stress and anxiety, there is a physiological benefit that can be measured.

Actually, in an article in the Boston Globe, Alice Dembner, tackled this subject. Her piece is called "A prayer for health." The studies she found and cited showed no correlation between prayer and healing. Those who prayed and those who did not experienced the same outcomes statistically.

Those tests are referring to supernatural healing, like where one person prays for another. What I'm referring to is the fact that stress shortens telomeres in the body, which causes people to age faster. Meditation and prayer have been shown to reduce stress, therefore praying for one's own health, can have the benefit of increased telomeres and therefore a more healthy life. Obviously the key for this to work is reduced stress. So if someone is going to the prayer board at church every week and getting stressed out over every request, it could have the opposite effect. But if prayer reduces anxiety, it can have the benefit of improved health, not because of any supernatural reason but for known natural reasons. Yoga and Tai Chi are said to work for the same reasons. Obviously it's not going to work for growing limbs back because improved telomeres don't grow limbs. You'd probably need an intercessory god for something like that.