Love Wins by Rob Bell

[Tony Mel]

(03-28-2011 09:21 AM)chris1000bc Wrote:  

(03-28-2011 07:00 AM)Tony Mel Wrote:  Love already won at Calvary.

I agree with you and I am sure Bell does as well.

Bell would just ask you a string of forty questions that begins with..."But when you say 'Love already won at Calvary' do you just mean that love won for only a few people who believe a very narrow set of things? And if someone doesn't believe everything exactly the way I do they don't get in? So Ghandi isn't in heaven? We know this?"...and at the end you'd be wondering "Bell, are you sure of anything?"

Or that's kind of how I remember it. Someone else who read the book can tell me if that isn't the way it seemed to them. Though to try to be fair to Bell, there's only a chapter or two where he asks question after question. In his other chapters, he does sort of kind of answer questions about what he believes.

The Scriptures say that the Messiah will see the travail of his soul and be satisfied. Who says that there will be more damned than saved?

[chris1000bc]

(03-28-2011 12:10 PM)Tony Mel Wrote:  Who says that there will be more damned than saved?

Some people might think that Christ said that when he talked about a broad way leading to destruction and a narrow way leading to life that few find. But I hope more, not fewer people will be saved.

[chris1000bc]

(03-28-2011 12:34 PM)Donb123 Wrote:  Why the number isn't any greater than what Jesus said it is (few) and why the number is larger on the way of destruction (many) is something that's not revealed to us.

I would say that in spite of the fact that the term "few" is used it doesn't mean that there will not be many people in heaven. There may just be more somewhere else.

[chris1000bc]

(03-28-2011 12:40 PM)Donb123 Wrote:  I don't recall anyone saying otherwise?

Ok. I wanted to be sure it was clear that while one could affirm "few" compared to "many" in one sense, that you could also see the "few" as many in another sense.

Glad we are on the same side...someone told me your arguments were brilliant...I don't do well against brilliant arguments.

[Tony Mel]

(03-28-2011 12:34 PM)Donb123 Wrote:  

(03-28-2011 12:10 PM)Tony Mel Wrote:  The Scriptures say that the Messiah will see the travail of his soul and be satisfied. Who says that there will be more damned than saved?

Jesus did.

Matthew 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Jesus was satisfied because he saved all that the Father gave to him/his sheep/the elect/all those who were ordained to eternal life/et.al. He did precisely what he set out to do and left nothing up to chance. Why the number isn't any greater than what Jesus said it is (few) and why the number is larger on the way of destruction (many) is something that's not revealed to us.

What if God chooses to redeem the aborted babies, little children, and mentally retarded? Charles Spurgeon believed that given that Christ has the preeminence over all things (Col. 1:18), He will have more saved people than damned.

[oneflewoutofthecuckcoosnest]

(03-28-2011 11:28 AM)Donb123 Wrote:  [quote='greg' pid='13036' dateline='1301325431']
When you read the bible, you are not reading greek mythology. Inspired men of God wrote down as the Holy Spirit guided them. Greek mythology plays no part whatsoever.

Quote:Paul also used the terms "logos" and "unknown god" both terms of pagan origin and infused them with Christian meaning. I suspect the terms Hades and Tartarus and Gehenna were used simply because they evoked a mental image that the author was wanting to project.

Me, I'm not dogmatic about the temperature of hell because the Biblical authors did use terms that had a lot of baggage with them. The Bible also says that death and hell are ultimately cast into the lake of fire. The term "lake of fire" seems by it's very name to evoke a more consistent picture of fire, temperature, and all around suckage than just "hell" would. Whether some believe the lake of fire would be temporary or eternal is also of no concern to me because being in a "lake of fire" doesn't sound like anything good even for a short duration.

The subject of hell probably deserves another thread. It doesn't appear until intertestamental Judaism and it borrows from the Greeks. Doesn't mean we should right it off, but it also doesn't deserve the prominence some give to it.

[Tooktheredpill]

(03-28-2011 08:25 PM)Donb123 Wrote:  

(03-28-2011 07:47 PM)oneflewoutofthecuckcoosnest Wrote:  The subject of hell probably deserves another thread. It doesn't appear until intertestamental Judaism and it borrows from the Greeks. Doesn't mean we should right it off, but it also doesn't deserve the prominence some give to it.

Things appearing AFTER intertestamental period:

Jesus
Mary
Lord's Supper
Disciples/Apostles
spiritual gifts
2nd coming

Yeah, but those things all have specific application to the church. Hell would be of significance to every living person. And somehow it's not that important in the O.T.

[Tony Mel]

(03-28-2011 07:36 PM)Donb123 Wrote:  

(03-28-2011 07:22 PM)Tony Mel Wrote:  What if God chooses to redeem the aborted babies, little children, and mentally retarded? Charles Spurgeon believed that given that Christ has the preeminence over all things (Col. 1:18), He will have more saved people than damned.

I choose not to participate in the "what if" game when it comes to the things of God.

It's not a game. My questions are meant to initially challenge this thinking. We grow with the assumption that there will be less in Heaven than in Hell when in reality we do not know for sure. All we know is that at Jesus' time, very few people strove and found the Kingdom. Judaism was more appealing.

As a Postmillennialist, I believe Christ will ultimately reign physically in this world by bringing about an eventual, worldwide belief in the gospel. It's hard to say most people will be in Hell when Christians will rule the earth!

[chris1000bc]

I have been listening to the Gospel Coalition conference this past week. And they had two sessions that relate to Rob Bell's book. The first one is by Don Carson, and in it he discusses universalism and Bell. Then in the second one a panel of people discuss Rob Bell's book. They are not favorable to it.

Here is the link. I am linking to the printable version of this blog post in the hopes that it will make finding the two sessions easier.

I thought some people who have read the book or read about the book might find it interesting. I hope you do.

[Elijah Craig]

Al Mohler's most notorious act at Southern Seminary was firing Molly Marshall, a female theology professor. My understanding is that her theology of the after life was in the vein of Bell. A little more strongly universalist but in the ballpark. The central idea is that people get a chance, or extra chances, after death to change their mind and chose Christ. Bell does clearly state that it would be possible for a sinner to hold out indefinitely and remain in hell forever. I'm not sure what Molly Marshall thought on that point. Incidentally it's not necessarily a liberal view unless you consider C.S. Lewis and John Wesley to be liberals.

But I wouldn't expect Mohler to give an inch on Bell because that would re-ignite a fire. Denny Burk is Mohler's minion... there won't be any difference of thought. DeYoung and Taylor are in cahoots... they won't vary at all. A relatively small number of Reformed Baptists have managed to drive Rob Bell's book sales to the point he opened up at #2 on the New York Times best seller list. If they're lucky, the books they publish against Bell in the future will benefit from his popularity. Bell, McLaren, et al, are in a symbiotic relationship with Piper, Mohler, etc.