Doctrine vs. Morality

[myotch]

What if part of their doctrinal beliefs includes an unhealthy translation of "their sins will be counted as righteousness"? What if their doctrinal beliefs make them believe that there is absolutely no law? They could still regard doctrine as "high", evidently much higher than personal morality.

One's morality is based on either religion or philosophy.

The good thing about religion is that morality is generally not regarded as relative. Some acts or attitudes are just plain wrong - there is white and black. It's never ok in a normal situation to walk up to somebody and kill them. It's never ok to commit adultery. It's never ok to lie in court when one has sworn to tell the truth. These things are pretty simple concepts within particular religion - easy to grasp, and even to live by, more or less, if one is guided and informed by one's religious beliefs.

Within one's religion, doctrine and morality enforce each other. They are symbiotic. If one has religious faith, it is within the structure of doctrine. That doctrine informs which actions and attitudes are ok, and which are verboten, and which actions the religion is totally silent about. Some of it is common sense, and some of it is for a greater good that we sometimes have a hard time comprehending.

[lucrezaborgia]

(12-10-2011 03:09 PM)myotch Wrote:  The good thing about religion is that morality is generally not regarded as relative. Some acts or attitudes are just plain wrong - there is white and black. It's never ok in a normal situation to walk up to somebody and kill them. It's never ok to commit adultery. It's never ok to lie in court when one has sworn to tell the truth. These things are pretty simple concepts within particular religion - easy to grasp, and even to live by, more or less, if one is guided and informed by one's religious beliefs.

Yeah cuz that never happens outside of religion...

Until the past 50 or so years, adultery was only if a married woman slept with someone else or if a married man slept with a woman who was married to another. As far as I know the bible does not say anything about a man having sex with a woman who isn't married when he is married. Sex with your slaves or servants wasn't adultery in the OT. I'm not so sure about the NT but I could be wrong.

I can't see how lying in court when you have sworn to tell the truth is OK in any morality structure.

[myotch]

I didn't mean to imply what you are addressing.

However, generally, those outside religion don't believe in "absolute truth" in regards to morality.

[captain_solo]

I don't believe they can be separated.

Someone who doesn't care about their moral character doesn't really believe whatever theology they happen to spout. They are merely using it as a tool to salve their conscience because they are morally guilty.

Both are important, but Morality trumps any knowlege. I'd rather have a person honesty and sincerely living the 10% of the scripture they know than someone who is a Pharisee of the Pharisees

[GraceThruFaith]

I do not think one can be greater than the other.

You can have be a moral person but have bad doctrine.
For example, many fundamentalists have morality, but the doctrine that is fueling that morality is incorrect. A fundy can obey the commands of Scripture, but mere obedience isn't enough. Many are doing it to win God's favor, others are doing it because they are trying to be a good Christian, others are obeying because they would feel super guilty if they disobeyed, ec. These are all bad doctrine. Good doctrine would be that our obedience should only flow from the Gospel and grace of God. I give to others because Christ gave Himself to me. I love others because Christ first loved me. That's good doctrine that leads to good morality.

You can have bad morality yet good doctrine.
I think this is what 1 Corinthians 8:1 states when it reads, "Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth." It is possible to have "all knowledge" (1 Corinthians 13:2) yet have no love. According to the Charity Chapter, if that is what I have, "I am nothing" (v 2).

[Monipenny]

Lets not forget, you do not have to be religious to be a moral person. These two are seperate from each other, one is doctrine, the other is morality, two completely different things.

[Tina's Marine]

I've seen some great comments on this and some have, in my opinion, hit it the nail right on the head, so to speak.

The basic premise is that we are talking about a Christian or at least one who professes to know Jesus as his Savior.

Here's the story behind the question.

In the book, the author is talking about his time as a seminary professor. He had lunch with some of his students and they were discussing things and the doctrine of Biblical Inerrancy came up and this man was very adamant about the subject.

Later in the day, the man, who was a pastor, husband and father, came to the office and confessed that he had been addicted to pornography for the past 15yrs and had visited prostitutes at least three times.

He requested that some men from a local charismatic church pray over him. During this prayer, one of the men prayed softly in tongues. This young man was more upset over the speaking in tongues than he was that he had cheated on his wife and was addicted to pornography.

The author of the book goes on to say that he realized that this man's religious authorities had placed doctrinal authority their highest value. He goes on to say that this emphasis is not found in the NT. This emphasis places a higher value on the mind than on the heart (our affections) and in essence saying that believing the right thing is more important than doing the right thing.

He said the result of this misplaced emphasis is that this "young pastor had lost the ability to weep over his sins, but he still had a passion to defend the authority of the Bible."

This got me thinking about Jesus and what He taught while here on earth. I've been slowly working my way through Matthew and what I have realized more deeply is that Jesus' emphasis was on our heart. What doctrine did Jesus teach while on earth? He taught the He came to save mankind from sin and that you had to go through Him for salvation (Doctrine of Salvation). He taught that the Holy Spirit would come and take His place(Doctrine of the Holy Spirit). He taught that He would come again in the future (Doctrine of Eschatology).

I think doctrine is important but maybe we've made it too complex. First, salvation comes through Jesus alone. Second, the Holy Spirit has come to be a help to us. Third, Jesus is coming again, soon. Let's not be too worried about the how and when because, just like 2,000 years ago, it probably won't look like we think it will.

Jesus gave us two commands. Luke 10:27 "And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself."

I believe that, with God's help, we can obey these two commands and that our lives will honor God in both our heart, our actions, and our doctrine.

[lucrezaborgia]

(12-10-2011 04:39 PM)myotch Wrote:  I didn't mean to imply what you are addressing.

However, generally, those outside religion don't believe in "absolute truth" in regards to morality.

We've argued this to death in another thread...but...not much is absolute in religion regarding morality.

[pastor's wife]

(12-11-2011 12:15 AM)Tinas Marine Wrote:  During this prayer, one of the men prayed softly in tongues. This young man was more upset over the speaking in tongues than he was that he had cheated on his wife and was addicted to pornography.

This is incredibly sad, ironic, and also maddening to see people straining at gnats and swallowing camels.

In the past couple years, I've truly grown to appreciate this verse: "Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up." So many people have lots of knowledge about what the Bible says, but the result is arrogance and eventual blindness toward their own sins and toward their responsibility toward others.

I know of a young pastor who left the IFB but who would still be classified as conservative evangelical in his beliefs. He is passionately devoted to living for Christ, but he has received nothing but scorn, rejection from his family. He told me that his dad, an IFB pastor, told him that it would be better if he'd raped or murdered someone, because then he could confess and repent and be restored!!!!! I was FLABBERGASTED to hear that his father would rather his son be a morally repugnant rapist or murderer than a pastor who doesn't wear a suit, preaches from the ESV, has facial hair, and sings praise music (and reaches out to the down-and-outers)!!! When I hear stuff like this, I feel like Alice falling down the rabbit hole into a sinister and horrible Wonderland where "godly" people hide insidious evil behind masks of doctrinal purity. All our knowledge is NOTHING if we don't have love!!! And so many in the IFB don't know this. I've actually heard messages warning the congregation about being "too" loving! As if it were possible!!! God is love. 1 Cor. 13 describes love. We are to be known by our love. I want that to mark my life.

Certainly belief is necessary: 1 John 5:5 says, "Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God." But as you said, belief can be truly simplified, and when we've made it so complex and so all-consuming that we find ourselves embroiled in evil but excusing it because "at least we believe the right things", we have truly lost the way.