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Elijah Craig · (This post was last modified: 10-25-2011 05:06 PM by Elijah Craig.)

TULIP is the Synod of Dort's response to the five Remonstrans. Calvin never laid out five points. The Synod of Dort did not represent a cross-section of all Calvinsits. And most importantly, TULIP is about as good a descriptor of Calvinism as the Five Fundamentals are of orthodox Christianity. Which is to say, it's not helpful at all. Both TULIP and the Five Fundamentals are specific responses to specific historical challenges. The require a fair amount of historical background to even understand what is being said.

For example, Total Depravity does NOT mean that all people commit or are capable of commiting all sins. It means their depravity is enough that they are totally unable to accept Christ without first being drawn. You wouldn't get that just from hearing the two words "Total Depravity."

I don't jive well with anyone who uses the TULIP as some sort of guidepost-- and that goes for Calvinuts who think TULIP delinates Calvinism.

And FWIW, as far as "Reformed Baptists" go my creds are unimpeachable.

**redbeardiam** · 10-27-2011, 02:18 PM

(10-25-2011 05:06 PM)Elijah Craig Wrote: TULIP is the Synod of Dort's response to the five Remonstrans. Calvin never laid out five points. The Synod of Dort did not represent a cross-section of all Calvinsits. And most importantly, TULIP is about as good a descriptor of Calvinism as the Five Fundamentals are of orthodox Christianity. Which is to say, it's not helpful at all. Both TULIP and the Five Fundamentals are specific responses to specific historical challenges. The require a fair amount of historical background to even understand what is being said.

For example, Total Depravity does NOT mean that all people commit or are capable of commiting all sins. It means their depravity is enough that they are totally unable to accept Christ without first being drawn. You wouldn't get that just from hearing the two words "Total Depravity."

I don't jive well with anyone who uses the TULIP as some sort of guidepost-- and that goes for Calvinuts who think TULIP delinates Calvinism.

And FWIW, as far as "Reformed Baptists" go my creds are unimpeachable.

When most people talk about Calvinism, I assume they are talking about a reformed soteriology/the five points, however you prefer to state them. When they talk about reformed theology, I expect that they are starting to think a bit more broadly.

greg · 11-14-2011, 09:13 AM

Read God's Word and learn all you need to know about Calvinism, and that is that John Calvin was a sinful man (as we all are) and completely wrong regarding nearly all of his theology.

You will find that Jesus Christ came to planet Earth to seek and to save that which was lost. You will find that He not only died for our sins, but also for the sins of the whole world. You will find that He said "I would that all men be saved"

It's really interesting stuff, and really pretty simple actually if you read if for yourself and not listen to what some man has to say about it.

greg · 11-15-2011, 12:37 PM

(11-14-2011 09:19 AM)Donb123 Wrote:
(11-14-2011 09:13 AM)greg Wrote: Read God's Word and learn all you need to know about Calvinism, and that is that John Calvin was a sinful man (as we all are) and completely wrong regarding nearly all of his theology.

You will find that Jesus Christ came to planet Earth to seek and to save that which was lost. You will find that He not only died for our sins, but also for the sins of the whole world. You will find that He said "I would that all men be saved"

It's really interesting stuff, and really pretty simple actually if you read if for yourself and not listen to what some man has to say about it.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for this topic but your sound-bite theology is a bit too simplistic in that it doesn't take into account the whole counsel of God. I can only presume that you simply skip over the passages that clearly teach predestination and election because they don't fit with your preconceived bias.

Let me ask you this then, when the Bible says that God "would that all men be saved" why are they not? Does it mean God is unable to save all of them? or is man's will so powerful that it thwarts God? or does God limit his sovereignty in matters of salvation and become something of a lesser God because he cannot interfere with man's choices in this one instance? Why this one instance? In what other areas do you limit God's ability to accomplish his ends?

The questions that you ask are all very good ones, and they are precisely the questions that "YOU" should be seeking the answers to, from the bible itself and not from some simple, sinful man. Don't you respect your own intelligence and opinions as much as you do some sinful man's? i.e. John Calvin? I certainly do.

A sovereign God made a sovereign salvation plan. He purchased salvation for this entire planet and everyone in it. That's what His word says over and over.

Salvation is described as a gift. That gift has been purchased and is available for all of mankind. "I would that all men be saved" "How often I would gather you together as a hen gathers her chicks, but you would not" The gift (of salvation) has been purchased and is available for "all who would believe) he forces no one, can you imagine God "forcing" folks like Jeffrey Dahmer to get saved!! I don't want to get saved Dahmer tells God, sorry Jeff, but I have you down here as one of the pre-selects. How in the world can you or anyone see God "forcing" himself on someone, and then further, how can anyone read the bible and "make" it say that! It is always man's free will to accept or reject. "But as many as received Him to them gave He power to become the Sons of God (really!! yes!!) even to them that believe on His name.

I am simply amazed how anyone can pick up a bible and believe the claims of Calvinism, one should run not walk away from any system of theology that has some simple man's name attached to it. Of couse Calvin himself mostly followed Augustine, I don't really care about either one's opinions, I care about what thus saith the Lord. I simply believe what Jesus says. "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me" I believe exactly that! For whosever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" I believe exactly that. I care not what Calvin or Augustine has to say about any of these verses, Jesus Christ told "ME" this. I believe Him. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." I don't care what any man says about these verses, God spoke this to me, and I have taken Him up on it.

As hard as it may be for you or for anyone reading this, simply try to set your "traditions" aside when you pick up that blessed Holy book and see for yourself what thus saith the Lord. Who cares what Calvin thinks about it!!

A gift is not yours until you accept it. Also no one can force you to take a gift.

greg · (This post was last modified: 11-16-2011 01:16 PM by greg.)

(11-15-2011 02:05 PM)Donb123 Wrote:
(11-15-2011 12:37 PM)greg Wrote: The questions that you ask are all very good ones, and they are

But not good enough for you to tackle....

Which of us is appealing to the other to follow God's Word and God's Word alone, and to leave foolish men's theology behind?

Btw, I don't think I have ever heard a calvinst that had a clue about predestination and election, they mostly have been influenced by Calvin, and he demonstrated clearly that he had no understanding regarding those subjects. I appeal to you to continue to study God's Word as it relates to these matters, and not swallow everything that you are taught, but compare those things to scripture, and if at all possible set your traditions aside.

My beliefs come from my own study of God's Word, I have followed no sinful man's beliefs.

"I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone - for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men." 1 Timothy 1:1-6

I'll take Paul's word over John Calvin's any day, so should you!

lucrezaborgia · 11-16-2011, 02:49 PM

So greg...don't read any book about the bible and only take your own interpretations as biblical truth?

Don · 11-16-2011, 04:39 PM

I'll take Paul's word over John Calvin's any day, so should you!

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That presupposes that Calvin is in direct conflict with Paul's writings. So do you have any specifics you would be willing to give us where Calvin is in direct conflict with Paul's writings? please give source material references when you give your examples. Thanks.

lucrezaborgia · 11-16-2011, 05:12 PM

Sort of off-topic...but would we even have Baptist and protestant without John Calvin and Martin Luther?

captain_solo · 11-16-2011, 05:41 PM

(11-16-2011 05:12 PM)lucrezaborgia Wrote: Sort of off-topic...but would we even have Baptist and protestant without John Calvin and Martin Luther?

Everyone who has read the trail of blood knows Baptist weren't protestants, in fact while Catholics burned Protestants at the stake, Protestants burned Baptists! (I think they might have even been part of the plot that beheaded John!)

captain_solo · 11-16-2011, 05:45 PM

(11-16-2011 01:14 PM)greg Wrote:
(11-15-2011 02:05 PM)Donb123 Wrote: But not good enough for you to tackle....

Which of us is appealing to the other to follow God's Word and God's Word alone, and to leave foolish men's theology behind?

Btw, I don't think I have ever heard a calvinst that had a clue about predestination and election, they mostly have been influenced by Calvin, and he demonstrated clearly that he had no understanding regarding those subjects. I appeal to you to continue to study God's Word as it relates to these matters, and not swallow everything that you are taught, but compare those things to scripture, and if at all possible set your traditions aside.

My beliefs come from my own study of God's Word, I have followed no sinful man's beliefs.

"I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone - for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men." 1 Timothy 1:1-6

I'll take Paul's word over John Calvin's any day, so should you!

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Romans 9:14-24

Unless I am mistaken these words were written by Paul - there are plenty others like them that he wrote.

It would be really great if you would stop calling God unjust for doing what is the result of his very nature. Yeah, and It would also be great if you would read the words of Paul, all of them.