Glad I'm out!

[redbeardiam]

(10-24-2011 03:31 PM)Ricardo Wrote:  "Father loves you through His son."

Huh?

I know this is a meet and greet thread, but puleeeze.

Such antropomorphism really makes my head spin. If God is at the same time Father AND Son, loving me by being narcissistic doesn't do anything for me.

Does this mean God didn't love us before Jesus?

Attacking someone for trinitarian language is lame. Especially on a meet and greet thread, where no one (else) is looking for a fight.

[Elijah Craig]

(10-24-2011 04:57 PM)redbeardiam Wrote:  Attacking someone for trinitarian language is lame. Especially on a meet and greet thread, where no one (else) is looking for a fight.

+3 in 1

[redbeardiam]

(10-24-2011 04:30 PM)Alaskagirl85 Wrote:  I didn't think I'd get this personal (and RAMBLING) on here. But all the thoughtful people and the lack of bashing is encouraging. At what point are you no longer a Christian? I sort of hate labels, but also find them comforting. It feels shallow to just say "I'm spiritual." I'm also not sure exactly how to raise my daughter with a love for God outside of an organized religion. My jumbled thoughts and everchanging loyalties don't seem like a very comforting spiritual heritage to pass on. Can anyone relate to this? Any words of wisdom?

I hesitate to take the 'words of wisdom' challenge. But I'd say giving yourself time to settle, then being open and honest with your kids on whatever level they're old enough to connect with is the way to go.

[Dude]

(10-24-2011 04:30 PM)Alaskagirl85 Wrote:  

(10-24-2011 08:08 AM)exOBCstudent Wrote:  Glad to have you here! The military was the primary factor which led me eventually out of the IFB as well. I spent almost my ENTIRE life there though. Your husband wasn't about to attend Oklahoma Baptist College by any chance was he?

I'm very relieved to hear that you only spent 3 years in that mess...I too wish that was all I had invested in them.

Actually it was this school, Heartland- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heartland_B...le_College I don't see it mentioned on here much, but it was popular at my former church, 3 or 4 teenagers went there after graduating highschool.

It's been an interesting journey since leaving IFB, and I'm not even sure if I'm a Christian anymore. It's been 3 years since I've been in an IFB church. For the first year after leaving we went church shopping, and attended a non-denom evangelical church for about 6 months, and then a couple different Pentecostal and Calvery Chapel churches. A lot of the problems I had with the IFB church were in all the churches to a lesser degree. And yes, I know the whole "if there is a perfect church, you better not go there because then it wouldn't be". The last two years we've been through Vedanta, Hinduism, Word-Faith, positive thinking, metaphysics, new age, paganism and nature worship. (I had done this World Religions thing before I became a Christian at age 16. In middle school I tried Buddhism for awhile. In 9th grade I almost converted to Islam, I attended prayer in a mosque for a whole year.)

Now we don't attend any organized religious services. My thinking now is that God is bigger than any one religion, even bigger than Jesus and Chrisitianity and the Bible. So I guess I no longer feel that there is only one way to God, but many ways. I think Jesus might still be the way for me, though. There is a lot in the Bible I can't justify or explain, and it's too hard for me to have faith that God ordered the Canaanite genocide or came up with much of the Law. I feel like I have to do a lot of mental gymnastics for the Bible make sense to me as a whole. And I read the minor prophets, or much of the OT, and it's hard for me to get any peace or understanding from all the promised destruction and death. But then if I pick and choose which parts I believe, I don't know how I have anything to stand on. Sometimes I think maybe God is in everyone and in everything, and thats pretty pantheistic and unChrisitian. I'm also thrown off by the fact that some things I was sure of, now I'm not sure... so it seems like I just pick my beliefs day to day... and then I go down that "what is Truth and how can we ever know" spiral. I still feel a lot of love for God, and for Jesus, but also for Ganesh and for nature. I don't know if I believe in Heaven and Hell or reincarnation, and deciding which one I believe, even after a lot of reading and prayer, feels sort of shallow, like I'm just picking me beliefs based on how I'm feeling this week. I know what God has done in my life, but I find peace and wisdom in so many spiritual traditions, that it feels like I have no peace and assurance because I'm not sure which path to dedicate myself to. I'm not sure how to label the Mystery.

I didn't think I'd get this personal (and RAMBLING) on here. But all the thoughtful people and the lack of bashing is encouraging. At what point are you no longer a Christian? I sort of hate labels, but also find them comforting. It feels shallow to just say "I'm spiritual." I'm also not sure exactly how to raise my daughter with a love for God outside of an organized religion. My jumbled thoughts and everchanging loyalties don't seem like a very comforting spiritual heritage to pass on. Can anyone relate to this? Any words of wisdom?

Alaskagirl, before I give you any advice, I want to clarify that whatever path you follow is your choice to make. My thoughts are only something to consider and are solely meant to help a fellow traveller. They are, in no way, meant to push.

Having said that, I've been pretty close to where you are now in terms of religion and Christianity specifically. I was right on the cusp of chucking it entirely, although my journey in the IFB was longer than yours and my time away also was/has been/is.

One thing that most people who leave the IFB never consider is the liturgical churches. I'm not referring here to the conservative evangelical churches that follow some elements of liturgy, but the fully liturgical churches (Roman Catholic, Episcopal, or Lutheran). The reason why we tend to avoid them is that it was so repeatedly ingrained in us that they were not Christian that we have a hard time seeing past the stereotypes that we were taught.

These three denominations are much different in reality than the IFB has taught us (really, most denominations are). For me, it was 11 years before I set foot in a church and then I started going to all of the denominations I had been told were bad. Initially, I stayed within the more conservative places, but was unsatisfied. Eventually, I gave the liturgical churches a try.

I eventually found a place that really touched me in the Episcopal church. I am currently going to an Inquirer's class there, which is required for membership, although I am still uncertain if I will actually join or not. I always was taught that the liturgical churches taught a works based salvation, but this isn't true. All of their literature and worship points to faith and a personal relationship with Christ and God.

One of the things I like about them as a denomination is that the openly state that they do not consider themselves the One True Church and that there are other good and redeemed people who exist outside of their churches. They claim in their materials to represent the church where people go when they aren't good enough to go to the other churches. Until I went there, I didn't understand what they meant. Now I do and it is wonderful.

The other thing that I like about them, as odd as it sounds, is that my path to them came through my practice of Zen. Strangely, there are a lot of Episcopalians who have the same story as I do. So much so that many Episcopal churches have classes about the similarities between the philosophy of Zen and the religion of Christianity and the practical function of the two. In fact, two bishops within the American branch of the church are also qualified Zen masters.

While I gave some of my own story, it was only meant as an example. But I would recommend at least taking a look at the liturgical churches, as you will find something entirely different than what you expect. They may not be right for you, of course. And you should be cautious, as there are movements within some of them that may not be for you (some of the synods in Lutheranism are just as controlling and harsh as the IFB, for example, while others are not at all like that).

In any event, I wish you all the best whatever you do and am glad you found SFL. It is a wonderful site to help you along in your journey.

[Alaskagirl85]

redbeardiam- That sounds pretty wise to me. Thank you for the advice. I'm definetly going to try to be open and honest with her.

Dude- Your comments are extremely helpful. I haven't attended a Roman Catholic or Episcopal Church since becoming an adult. I have been to a few Lutheran services. I've never heard of a Zen practitioner also being an Episcopalian, or the similarities between the practical function of Zen and Christianity. That sounds interesting. I did read a book called 'Living Buddha, Living Christ' awhile back. When I got back into meditation after leaving the Baptist church, I was too scared to just start chanting in Sanskrit again, so I learned how to do the rosary with the different meditations on different days of the week. And sometimes I watch Mass on TV. That was really encouraging to me, but that's about as close to Catholicism as I've come. I hadn't seriously considered attending a liturgical church. My husband was bored at the Lutheran and Presbyterian churches we've tried, because he's more into the the emotion at the Charismatic churches, or the Pastor yelling at the Baptist churches, or the chanting at the Hindu temples. A less ecstatic worship service doesn't bother me, but I wonder how he would connect spiritually being at a liturgical church. Also, since you've sort of been where I am now, do you have any book recommendations? On Episcopalian or Catholic theology, for instance? I know the internet is filled with info, but sometimes I get tired of wading through the crap. Thanks again for your response.

[senda wales]

I am interested in this discussion of Episcopalian churches as well. It's one of the churches on my list to check out.

[Ricardo]

Alaskagirl85, Been there, done that. All of it.

I even have contemplated taking courses toward the Chaplain degree at the "Interfaith" divinity school half a block from my house. MInd you it is not "Interdenominational" as in Baptist, methodist, AoG, but Interfaith as in Christian, jewish, Muslim, Wicca, Budhist.

My mother would definitely have a cow.

This divinity school suggests you choose whatever path to God you feel most comfortable with and go with it.

[Alaskagirl85]

(10-24-2011 11:22 PM)Ricardo Wrote:  you choose whatever path to God you feel most comfortable with and go with it.

That is great advice, and worded very simply. Maybe I don't trust myself now, since the first time I felt like I was "home" and really got on a path for a few years, it was at an IFB church. I think I need to choose more carefully next time, although I'm sure my time in fundyland taught me some lessons I needed to learn.

[Ricardo]

Christianity, Budhism, Judaism and Islam can be summarized in one word. Surrender.

Let go, Let God.

Each one of those religions has their own quirks and their man-induced rules. (You haven't lived until you find a fundamentalist Budhist telling you EXACTLY how to breathe.) The rules and regulations of a belief system that started saying "All paths lead to Heaven," are mind-bogling. Few Budhists see the irony.

Back at the Christian ranch, I've abandoned the inerrancy doctrine, the virginal birth, the physical resurrection, the Atonement doctrine, Heaven, Hell, and much much more.

What is left, you may ask?

Love God, love neighbor.

But. But just about any of those other religions could get you to that same place.

Right. Rom 1:19-20.

[Dude]

(10-24-2011 11:12 PM)Alaskagirl85 Wrote:  redbeardiam- That sounds pretty wise to me. Thank you for the advice. I'm definetly going to try to be open and honest with her.

Dude- Your comments are extremely helpful. I haven't attended a Roman Catholic or Episcopal Church since becoming an adult. I have been to a few Lutheran services. I've never heard of a Zen practitioner also being an Episcopalian, or the similarities between the practical function of Zen and Christianity. That sounds interesting. I did read a book called 'Living Buddha, Living Christ' awhile back. When I got back into meditation after leaving the Baptist church, I was too scared to just start chanting in Sanskrit again, so I learned how to do the rosary with the different meditations on different days of the week. And sometimes I watch Mass on TV. That was really encouraging to me, but that's about as close to Catholicism as I've come. I hadn't seriously considered attending a liturgical church. My husband was bored at the Lutheran and Presbyterian churches we've tried, because he's more into the the emotion at the Charismatic churches, or the Pastor yelling at the Baptist churches, or the chanting at the Hindu temples. A less ecstatic worship service doesn't bother me, but I wonder how he would connect spiritually being at a liturgical church. Also, since you've sort of been where I am now, do you have any book recommendations? On Episcopalian or Catholic theology, for instance? I know the internet is filled with info, but sometimes I get tired of wading through the crap. Thanks again for your response.

I'll answer more towards the weekend when I have more time, but these are the two books that a large number of Episcopal churches give to folks taking their Inquirer's classes. The first one is a really exceptional book on their philosophy. The other is a more academic discussion of their belief systems. I enjoyed them both.

Those Episkopals

A People Called Episcopalians

This is one of the books on the Zen Episcopal experience of one minister.

Without Buddha I Could Not Be a Christian

I'll dig up some more on the Zen thing when I make it back. Hopefully, this is useful to you in the short term.