Blasphemy

[Darrell]

Jack Trieber, "pastor" of North Valley Baptist Church, practices a little blasphemy in a sermon from September 26, 2007 by substituting "the pastor" for "the Lord" in Psalm 23.

Keep your eyes peeled for MULTIPLE white piano sightings.



If you've got the stomach, you can catch the entire sermon including demands that "all money in this church must run through the pulpit." The comments begin at 1:23:00.

Note: because of the video format I had to settle for screen captures + audio from the sermon instead of streaming video. If someone else would like to try their hand, feel free.

[phil]

What's the name of the sermon? i wanted to try and stomach the whole thing.

[steve95054]

I posted this in the comments, but I want a notification when someone replies, so I'll post it here, too.

I said:
"I’m going to go out on a limb here and actually defend Mr. Trieber on this one. I heard nothing blasphemous in this clip.

He says that he is a “little shepherd”. He says that the description of the Big Shepherd is found in Ps. 23. He says that you should be able to read Ps. 23 as his job description, since if he’s doing things differently than the Big Shepherd, he’s doing it wrong.

Also, he was careful to clarify the pronoun in “for His name’s sake” as still referring to God.

I can’t say I disagree, because I don’t. If the pastor is doing his job right, you can trust him, because he’s doing exactly the job described in Ps. 23.

Of course, I can’t speak to whether Mr. Trieber is actually fulfilling that or not. That’s not my place to judge. But his point is sound, biblically. In fact, it places that much more responsibility on Mr. Trieber, to actually live up to the Model."

[steve95054]

Let me add this:

I attended and graduated from GSBC (the college run by North Valley). I disagree with much of what goes on over there -- I think there are some serious flaws in the philosophy (these are not specific to GSBC, btw).

But I know this: Either Mr. Trieber is the world's best method actor, or he genuinely cares for his people, and tries to the best of his ability to actually live up to his understanding of the Model described in Psalm 23. Does that mean that he's perfect? No. Does that mean he doesn't have huge blind spots? No. (Then again, who of us doesn't?)

Of course he's in a system that caters to, trains, and encourages misuse of Scripture (willful ignorance, at best). That's one of the main reasons why I left the movement. In fact, he's probably being influenced in those directions himself, without even being aware of it, and thus the cycle perpetuates.

So it's easy to jump on the bandwagon every time someone changes a word of Scripture to make a point, and lambast the guy. However, unless we be guilty of the same kind of "freedom" that we so despise, let's be careful to listen to what he's actually saying: why did he change the verses, and is his reason for that biblically sound? Is he saying that the verse actually reads like his new rendering? (No, in this case.) So he's making a point. Is the point sound? (Yes, in this case.) Is he twisting Scripture to support it? No, in this case. Sure, he could have elaborated a little more on the "little shepherd following the big shepherd" thing, and brought in a few NT passages to support that, then (with heavier emphasis on the "this is the Model" aspect) brought in the reworded Ps. 23. But this is at the end of an already long sermon, and he was out of time, so he hit the highlights.

Knowing him as I do (which is not to say we're best buds or something, but four years around the guy in a small environment like that, you get a feel for who he is), I'm giving him the huge benefit of the doubt (also see I Cor. 13, particularly vs. 5).

In this case, what he's actually saying is true, and places the onus on himself to get it right! He applies this a call to unity. True, around himself, but in the larger context of his ministry, I feel confident in saying that he's not calling to unity around himself alone, but rather in the "follow me as I follow Christ" vein. In fact, that's his whole point with the Ps. 23 thing: Christ does this, and I'm supposed to also, under Him: so follow me as I follow Christ.

Let's not be guilty of misquotation ourselves, OK?

[kristensdaddy]

"He applies this a call to unity" If this guy is IFB, he is calling for anything EXCEPT unity.

[pastor's wife]

I posted on the blog too, but I'll repeat myself here (and add a little more for good measure! LOL)

I agree with you in one sense – Ps. 23 describes what a shepherd does. Since the pastor is described as a shepherd, this chapter definitely gives clues as to what a pastor MAY do (although I suppose it could be argued that this psalm containes things that ONLY the Good Shepherd Himself can do.)

I think that a pastor could use Ps. 23 in his personal devotions to help challenge him in ways to better shepherd his flock (although I still think he'd do better to meditate on what God is doing FOR HIM as HIS OverShepherd. It could also be used as a message to other pastors in how the Good Shepherd treats his sheep.

But I don't think this is an appropriate way to present this Psalm to the church. The focus OUGHT to be Christ. Instead this pastor changed the words of Scripture and inserted himself where God did not put him. “The pastor is my shepherd; I shall not want.” No way!!!! The pastor is not my end all and be all. The pastor does not lead me by still waters. God may USE my pastor to guide and lead and feed me, but it is GOD doing it. My assurance ought to come from Christ not from my pastor.

And clarying the pronoun in “for HIS Name’s sake” doesn’t make up for replacing God with himself in all the other instances.

So while the Psalm MIGHT be something that pastors could use on their own to challenge themselves as to how a shepherd behaves, any public preaching of this Psalm ought to point us to Christ who is the Great Shepherd Who gave His life for us, and beside Whom all our own service pales. My husband has certainly denied himself, sacrificed his time, been patient and kind, and served the people in our church in multitudinous ways. But NOTHING my husband does could compare to what God does for us.

[steve95054]

(06-13-2011 01:54 PM)pastors wife Wrote:  although I suppose it could be argued that this psalm containes things that ONLY the Good Shepherd Himself can do.

I respectfully disagree...in fact, I'm going to write a blog post breaking down Ps. 23 and how each item is prescribed as the pastor's job in the New Testament.

Quote:But I don't think this is an appropriate way to present this Psalm to the church.

Probably correct. Throwing it in at the end of a long sermon about authority, without a deeper exploration of the NT foundation for his point was a mistake (at best), I think.

[pastor's wife]

(06-13-2011 01:50 PM)steve95054 Wrote:  But I know this: Either Mr. Trieber is the world's best method actor, or he genuinely cares for his people, and tries to the best of his ability to actually live up to his understanding of the Model described in Psalm 23.

I don't know him nor have heard of him, but I'm glad if he does care for his people and model himself after Christ.

Quote: why did he change the verses, and is his reason for that biblically sound? Is he saying that the verse actually reads like his new rendering? (No, in this case.) So he's making a point. Is the point sound? (Yes, in this case.) Is he twisting Scripture to support it? No, in this case. Sure, he could have elaborated a little more on the "little shepherd following the big shepherd" thing, and brought in a few NT passages to support that, then (with heavier emphasis on the "this is the Model" aspect) brought in the reworded Ps. 23. But this is at the end of an already long sermon, and he was out of time, so he hit the highlights.

I think you can show that the pastor is a shepherd without saying the pastor will lead me beside the still waters. The pastor restores my soul.

I'm not eager to bash pastors - probably obviously! - but I take it seriously when someone replaces God's Name with his own. No matter how good his intentions, I think this is definitely wrong.

Quote:Knowing him as I do (which is not to say we're best buds or something, but four years around the guy in a small environment like that, you get a feel for who he is), I'm giving him the huge benefit of the doubt (also see I Cor. 13, particularly vs. 5).

I generally do try to give people the benefit of the doubt and try not to accuse people of things I don't know. (Generally - sometimes I get a bit carried away myself.) I'm not going to make wild and unsupported claims about a man I do not know. But I stick with my opinion that I think replacing his own name for God's in Psalm 23 is going too far to make a point.

Quote:I feel confident in saying that he's not calling to unity around himself alone, but rather in the "follow me as I follow Christ" vein. In fact, that's his whole point with the Ps. 23 thing: Christ does this, and I'm supposed to also, under Him: so follow me as I follow Christ.

I actually had the "follow me as I follow Christ" verse come to my mind as I was thinking about this, so it's interesting that you mention it. Paul said it, so it's apparantly a legitimate thing to say, but still, I've got to wave the red flag when someone tells his congregation to say, "Pastor is my shepherd; I shall not want." *wince* I don't even like writing that. It's the LORD!!! My hope is in the Lord! Does He use undershepherds? fellow-believers? Certainly!!! But ultimately, it is GOD who is my Shepherd, not a man.

[steve95054]

(06-13-2011 01:54 PM)kristensdaddy Wrote:  "He applies this a call to unity" If this guy is IFB, he is calling for anything EXCEPT unity.

Well, yeah. I never said that I think he holds the same definition of unity that I (or you) might. LOL

[pastor's wife]

I'd love to read your blog post when you finish it!