Debating the Definition of Sovereignty

[Presbygirl]

At that "point" Regeneration has already occurred.

[greg]

(06-01-2011 12:41 PM)Presbygirl Wrote:  At that "point" Regeneration has already occurred.

Tks, that's what I thought.

[greg]

My response could be misleading. I should have said "Tks that's what I thought (ya'll) believed in.

[phil]

Ok Don123,

I'll bite on what you said concerning God ordaining all things that come to pass. All basically means everything right? does that include sinful acts by manking? Would those act be by a permissive/permitting ordination/decree? Would those ordinations be causal?

I was hoping to look for some discussion on some passages that would support the concept. Passages in Daniel come to mind,but i don't have time to look them up. I still think some are missing the point. What does it mean that God is sovereign? What passages teach it(sigh-that's probably ill phrased)?

greg, please keep the soteriology debate out of this. This is about what it means for God to be sovereign (generally) and where the concept can be found. It would be helpfull if you set forth what you beleive it means(not what it does not mean) for God to be sovereign and site scripture to support it.

[captain_solo]

(06-01-2011 01:06 PM)phil Wrote:  Ok Don123,

I'll bite on what you said concerning God ordaining all things that come to pass. All basically means everything right? does that include sinful acts by manking? Would those act be by a permissive/permitting ordination/decree? Would those ordinations be causal?

I was hoping to look for some discussion on some passages that would support the concept. Passages in Daniel come to mind,but i don't have time to look them up. I still think some are missing the point. What does it mean that God is sovereign? What passages teach it(sigh-that's probably ill phrased)?

greg, please keep the soteriology debate out of this. This is about what it means for God to be sovereign (generally) and where the concept can be found. It would be helpfull if you set forth what you beleive it means(not what it does not mean) for God to be sovereign and site scripture to support it.

Job 42:2-6 "I know that you can do all things; no purpose of yours can be thwarted. You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’ Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. “You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you, and you shall answer me.’ My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.”"

This comes after God gives 3 chapters of examples of things that Job cannot understand about Himself and set him apart from His creation.

This contains elements of 2 aspects of my belief about God's sovereignty. First that "no purpose of [His] can be thwarted", and second, that my lack of knowledge or understanding does not negate a thing. The fact that I cannot reconcile sovereignty and man's free will as found in scripture does not make either of them untrue. Or for another example, the fact that God is sovereign yet evil exists and he cannot be held responsible for it? That is a sticky one... Also, the fact that I cannot know the will of God perfectly in all of its facets does not mean that he doesn't have one. Both of these ideas affect my actions but the second one does so more directly. I do not seek the specific will of God beyond what is revealed clearly in His Word, I follow the commands and principles of scripture, and I also use the rational, reasonable faculties God gave me and make decisions as wisely as I can, and trust that God's will will be done. I don't paralyze myself by finding that perfect person, job, ministry, friend, whatever...that does not mean that God cannot and does not work in those things, just that it is highly likely that I cannot and will not know how he does.

[pastor's wife]

I like how you stated that, captain_solo.

(06-01-2011 02:14 PM)captain_solo Wrote:  I don't paralyze myself by finding that perfect person, job, ministry, friend, whatever...that does not mean that God cannot and does not work in those things, just that it is highly likely that I cannot and will not know how he does.

I used to. I'm trying to learn not to. I think a lot of it was due to my faulty view of God. Like the third servant in the parable of the talents, I viewed God as a "hard man". Thus if I didn't make the right choice in any given situation, God would be angry at me and sort of view me begrudgingly and with less favor for the rest of my life.

Now I try to see Him as a loving Father, who recognizes that I am dust, and who takes pleasure in me, who treasures me. This view helps me to step out in confidance, unafraid that He's going to "whack me" if I make an "incorrect" choice.

[Presbygirl]

Sovereignty =God is the Supreme ruler.

Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you, plans to prosper you and not to harm you....
Psalm 103:19 The Lord has established his throne in heaven, and His kingdom rules over all. Verses 20-21 talk about the angels doing his bidding, and the heavenly hosts doing His will. Love that part because it reminds me that there are so many layers, if you will, to Gods kingdom.
Reference escapes me but....one day every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Again, ruler or sovereign over all concept.