Why all the Liquor?

[Darrell]

Quote:I was raised to believe that one sip and you'll be an alcoholic.

You mean Gilbert Morris lied to us!!??

[Scorpio]

In matters concerning the opposite sex....candy is dandy but liquor is quicker

[Darrell]

Quote:.candy is dandy but liquor is quicker

Thank you, Mr. Nash.

[Faith]

All what liquor? I don't think there's anything wrong with drinking alcoholic beverages, I just don't do it all that often. The last time I had any was at Thanksgiving dinner, before that was one beer in a Saturday afternoon January after a hard morning shoveling snow. And they said I'd become an alcoholic if I took a sip - whatEVER!

[Historian]

Sorry this is a little long. But it's an interesting thread!

Although I didn't grow up fundy, I did grow up in a family where drinking just was never talked about and my parents didn't do it. My grandparents were very much against it. Hence when I went to BJU I fell quickly into the more moderate fundy position that "Yes, we can't prove from the Bible there's anything technically wrong with it, but we all know that it's just not a "best" thing and God's really spiritual people would be wise enough to avoid it (which is secretly what God wants, anyway)." But I really didn't think about it all that much, to tell the truth.

Then I came to Asia. My first real interaction with liquor came when a fundy missionary showed up bragging about how he'd visited some very poor local believers and they were so glad to see him that they'd spent everything they had to buy a bottle of decent wine to share with him when he arrived. He uncorked it and poured it all down the sink right there, while railing on them for their sin. I was horrified by this behavior and definitely knew I would have enjoyed the bottle with them under those circumstance, but I still didn't really look into drinking all that much or think about it. Just seemed there were much more important things to worry about.

A few years later I was teaching a Bible study through Proverbs. A big question popped into my head when I reached chapter 9. If you don't know that passage off the top of your head, here it is:

Wisdom has built her house;
she has hewn her seven pillars.
She has slaughtered her beasts; she has mixed her wine;
she has also set her table.
She has sent out her young women to call
from the highest places in the town,
Whoever is simple, let him turn in here!
To him who lacks sense she says,
Come, eat of my bread
and drink of the wine I have mixed.
Leave your simple ways, and live,
and walk in the way of insight.

As soon as I read that, the first thing I thought was, "Hey. Why would God use a picture of something sinful (or even just something He prefers that none of us do) to entice us to do what's right? That's not like Him." I mean, if fundies are right and any consumption of achohol is a wicked sin, then this passage in Proverbs 9 could just as easily read, "Wisdom has opened her brothel. She has sent out her young whores to call from the highest places in town..."

Having a reasonably good knowledge of Hebrew and Greek, I began to look into the words for "wine," liquor," "strong drink," etc in the Bible. While there were occasional places where one could make a case that the drink in question was non-alcoholic (often translated "new wine" in the OT), most places there was simply no truth to the common fundy assertion that all these drinks had no alcohol in them. There were two things that finally did it for me. The first was reading J.C. Ryle's commentary on one of the Gospel accounts of Jesus turning water into wine. Since there is no honest linguistic way to pretend that Jesus turned that water into anything but alcoholic wine, holding to a "teetotaler position" (as he called it) was nothing short of accusing Jesus of sin, or (at best) of enabling sin and doing something God doesn't want His people to do. If Jesus was involved in sin, our whole basis of salvation comes crashing down. So this caught me up short. The same problem comes up in Numbers 28:7, where "strong drink" is to be offered to God as part of His offerings. Is God sinning here?

The second thing that really did it for me was Deuteronomy 14:

You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. And before the LORD your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your WINE, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the LORD your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the LORD your God chooses, to set his name there, then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the LORD your God chooses AND SPEND THE MONEY FOR WHATEVER YOUR HEART DESIRES—oxen or sheep or WINE or STRONG DRINK, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

Now while you could possibly really stretch a point and try to pretend that the "wine" there is unfermented grape juice, there is no getting around the fact that "strong drink" in the OT is talking about strong liquor. The equivalent of whiskey or vodka in today's world. I've heard the argument that this passage is sort of like God allowing OT characters to practice bigamy: it's just something God allowed (but didn't approve of) until He gave a fuller revelation about it. And I have to say....bullcookies. This isn't something God is "allowing" the Israelites to do because they don't know better. This is something God is commanding be done with HIS tithe money.

When I read that last passage, my conscience was immediately and completely liberated. I realized in a moment that alcohol was just another good thing that God has created that we are to freely enjoy. Like all the good things He has made it can and is abused by wicked men. But the fact that sinners abuse God's gifts doesn't mean we should avoid them. If that were the rule we could never marry, have children, eat anything, drink anything but water or play a game of any kind. All of these things are gifts that mankind regularly abuses and shatters himself on because of his lusts. And as someone has already mentioned, fundies are notorious for abusing their bodies with food just as surely as any alcoholic abused his body with liquor. Gluttony may sometimes bring on death more slowly than alcoholism (though not always!) but it does it just as surely. Any statement made concerning the wisdom of avoiding alcohol can be made with equal force concerning the need to avoid half the foods available in the United States (Big Macs, Snickers, Sprite, your average potluck casserole). Since reading and understanding these truths I have enjoyed alcohol, rejoicing in the good gift God has given me.

I also have to take issue with the statement that liquor is only destruction. Modern scientific study has made it quite clear that moderate drinking is not only not bad for you, but is actually good for you in many respects. I also have realized how important it is to give children a good example of a Christian adult enjoying and using this gift with wisdom and moderation (just like soda and candy). We had homeschoolers in our church who didn't let their children eat anything with any sweetener but honey in it. When they came to church dinners they ran around wildly, both fists stuffed with donuts, cookies and cake, eating it as fast as they could before someone would stop them. Some of them are diabetics today because of the sugar rampage they went on when they were free. In the same way, many kids who've come from teetotaling families become raging alcoholics in later life when they're finally "free." They've never learned anything about how to responsibly and wisely enjoy sugar or alcohol.

That being said, I do want to say that I don't mean to dismiss alcoholism. It is a serious problem. Many Christians are very wise to avoid any alcohol at all when they know themselves or their families and their propensities. My step-mother's family was destroyed by her dad's alcoholism, and I have the utmost respect for her preference not to have liquor anywhere near her home. But she doesn't try to guilt anyone into taking the same position she does, and she doesn't secretly look on anyone who drinks with suspicion. And, as a final note, I have noticed the tendency for some ex-fundies to throw themselves into drink as a reaction to their former prohibitions–drinking "in their face" as opposed to actually enjoying it as good gift from God. This is always foolish.

[JessB]

I've never had any but wouldn't be opposed to trying it. I think I'd be more interested what some of you have called "girly drinks".

Fundies take a couple verses from Proverbs and build a temperance doctrine from it. Never mind the fact that God plainly admonishes N.T. pastors, deacons and wives to moderation in this area.

I realize it stems from drunken fathers and grandfathers. My own dad always uses that argument. But a believer is supposed to be controlled by the Spirit, not spirits. I fully believe a believer can enjoy all the good things God made for us to enjoy with moderation, and that includes wine.

[IFB No More]

Ever since quitting fundy-ism while I have drank alcoholic beverages, it was never too big a point for me. I didn't really start to drink until I formally joined my new church - in obedience to the church covenant my prev. IFB church has set. I wasn't in contact with them (on the 'inactive' list) but I feel that one should obey whatever vows they have made, however incredible or unreasonable it is.

I can take two, three drinks as of now in one night, and I guess that's about it. Outside of social occasions I hardly touch it.

[Phatchick]

(01-06-2011 03:36 PM)Crankenpants Wrote:  It makes homeschooling more fun that's why!

[Historian]

Oh, and just to take part in the fun...

No beer like a cold Weihenstephan

[pastor's wife]

I've never had any. I'm still really intimidated over the whole issue - tender conscience, years of training, etc. I absolutely DO now believe that Christians have liberty in this area; that's a change of mind for me because I always used to think any Christian who drank was back-slidden and non-committed. Well, you all know! You've heard it before! I don't know if I'll ever be able to get over my fundy upbringing totally in this area. I was over at a friend's house not long ago and they asked what we wanted to drink, indicating that adult beverages were a possibility, and I'll admit I felt strange. My head KNOWS it's allowed, but it somehow still seems wrong!