Unwholesome Talk from the Pulpit

[TonyT]

(04-20-2011 05:20 PM)Darrell Wrote:  The Bible is full of examples of rough language but it's generally from a prophet who is railing against a group of people who has decided to no longer listen.

Yes, and many seem to think this applies to them.

I visited a church where the pastor used some coarse language. Once. Wonder how many others can say that too.

[Tikatu]

Then there's this...

Church Sign Advertises "Playing With Poop"

[pastor's wife]

(04-20-2011 06:28 PM)Donb123 Wrote:  

(04-20-2011 05:49 PM)pastors wife Wrote:  First, the Bible does refer to "filthy language" so there are obviously words that are filthy or bad. The question then becomes how to identify which ones are bad because some must be.

It may be obvious to you but it's not obvious to me. Again, language is merely a conduit for thoughts. It is the totality of the thoughts and the intent that make your words good or bad. No word in and of itself is good or bad. Allow me to illustrate- the word "and" is it good or bad?

I didn't mean to say that it's obvious which particular WORDS are filthy, just the fact that filthy language exists (otherwise the Bible would not tell us to abstain from it). Of course "and" is neither good or bad. "Damn" and "hell" I would not consider to be bad all the time; neither is a word that describes a female dog. The word itself is not necessarily bad or good. But how the word is used in our society ought to impact which words a Christian chooses to use and of course, any word is colored by the intent of the heart. Smooth and flattering words mean nothing if covering a heart of hate.

Quote:

Quote:For specific words, we look to our culture. Words and their meanings

There is some wisdom in considering your culture but I'm pretty sure you're not considering letting your culture define your morality with respect to language are you?

Actually, to some extent, yes. I think my words should be purer than the culture at large so if the culture thinks certain words are dirty, I certainly would not use them. In addition, there may be words that the culture approves of, but that I as a Christian refuse to use. In that sense, my vocabulary will be narrower than the world's. But then again, I will apply the principle of obedience to government - unless it goes against God's Word. Then we can obey God rather than man. The only instance I can think of as a Christian where I would choose to say words that the culture considers bad would be stating things like we're sinners doomed to hell without Christ. Even if our culture thinks that that is offensive, I'll still say it because it's what the Bible says. I'll try to say it lovingly and with great compassion, but I must say it. But I see no justification in Scripture for saying, "I'm not supposed to be of the world, so even though the f-word is considered a bad word, I can say it because I'm not of this world."

Quote:

Quote:change so we need to use words that communicate to the world we are in. The Bible tells us to be full of love, joy, and peace and as much as in us lies, to live peaceably with all men. Living peaceably would indicate that we don't purposefully use words that would insult or hurt others (whether they be the R-rated words or just "mean" words like "stupid" or "shut up"). We are to speak with grace, which to me means not choosing words that to the majority of our culture are offensive. When God tells us that we are not to be "like the world", I don't think He meant for us to ignore the conventions of polite society.

Great examples- calling someone "stupid" is far worse than getting angry and saying "damn".

I don't really know ANYBODY except maybe my in-laws who would care if I said "damn" so the "majority of our culture" (around me anyway) isn't applicable.

I've actually always thought saying an actual swear word is worse, but now that I think about it, I would probably think that the level of "badness" in language would be from least to most offensive: 1) hurting yourself and saying "damn", 2) calling someone else "stupid" in anger with the intent to hurt, 3) calling someone else a "damn #%*&" (insert expletive of your choice). I don't want to be called stupid, but I cannot bear to be sworn at. BTW, that's not the same thing as just hearing swear words. I'm not the profanity police; I don't need to correct anytime I hear someone say a four-letter word - unless they're speaking in the presence of children. But if someone were to start swearing AT me, I'm out of there. I consider language like that abusive to the extreme and I won't subject myself to that. But if someone were extremely angry about something ELSE, and were telling me about their frustration and were using "bad" words to describe how upset they were, I would listen to them and try to respond to their hurt and frustration, not simply give a knee-jerk, "naughty-naughty" response to them because of their choice of words. Am I making sense? To summarize, I see a huge difference between someone using swear words while talking to me (which I can overlook) and someone swearing AT me.

Quote:

Quote:An example would be the word "sh*t". Our society deems that unacceptable today. Whether or not it was common in the Middle Ages, it is considered vulgar today. For some reason, the word "poop" is OK (unless you're my mom! She doesn't like any references to bodily functions!)

The etymology of the word "vulgar" means "common, ordinary". Common and ordinary is not "bad". The whole entire notion is based on ancient British classism- which is of course sinful behavior.

We can argue about semantics. I agree that that's what "vulgar" originally meant, but today it's a synonym for "swear word", "four letter word", "bad word" or whatever you want to call them.

Quote:And finally, the Apostle Paul said what amounts to the contemporary word "sh1t" in Scripture. Phillipians 3:8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ… The word here translated “rubbish” was often used in Greek as a vulgar term for fecal matter. As such it would most likely have had a certain shock value for the readers. This may well be Paul’s meaning here, especially since the context is about what the flesh produces. I cannot thing of a better way to use the "profanity" of the word sh1t than to think of the totality of my old life compared to what I've gained in Christ.

I absolutely agree with you here! Paul does not use words like this often. When he does, it's with the specific purpose of making a strong point. I am not offended if someone were to say, "My life before Christ was sh1t." Or "all my pride and self-righteous is nothing but sh!t in the eyes of God."

[pastor's wife]

(04-20-2011 09:45 PM)RobMille Wrote:  I have heard it in other circumstances. I think the most famous one was when Tony Campolo went to a Bible College back in the 80s or 90s, and was explaining the impact of poverty in Africa in the number of children dying daily to little or not interest, and said "and you don't give a s*** about it", and the followed up with, "most of you are more concerned with the word I just used than you are about the 30,000 African children that died last night". I think that's a totally appropriate use of language by a preacher. What seems to be described in this thread isn't.

I agree. He used a "bad word" to get people's attention and make a point. I think that's a legitimate (albeit a bit shocking!) use of such words.

But when pastors start yelling about "wh*res" and "fa**ots" who'll be going to hell if they don't repent, they seem to be just expressing their hatred of certain people, not a heart of true concern for their souls. They're just using those words to express their disgust at those people.

[leaving]

About Tony Campolo, I'm reading a book of his called "A Reasonable Faith" and it's awesome.

[greg]

PW - Certainly there is filthy language that we are to avoid. Donb123's blathering response is just hilarious. I think his education has gone to his head (pardon the pun)

I know this sounds pentecostal but I was truly delivered of swearing/cursing in 1981. From my teens to 81 I had one of the foulest mouths east of the Mississippi, might have had something to do with me getting shot in the head that same year.

Folks make many assessments about us from our speech. Level of education, where we are from (accent) our mood, and on and on. Scripture tells us to "Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every oportunity. Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone." Colossians 4:3-4/Scripture is abundantly clear that we are to be careful with our speech.

I prefer the newer bible translations because I think they are more accurate and closer in meaning to the original autographs, and most of them don't use the course words that are contained in the KJV, which is an added plus.

[leaving]

I'm all for being careful with our speech, in fact the Bible says to minister GRACE unto the hearers, something I need to work a lot more on.

There are also words that I avoid because society has used them to be rude and vulgar, some are hate speech (faggot for example) and some offend others like the common 4-letter words. I try not to use any of them, but sometimes slip up in the 4-letter word variety.

However, I'm still not sure who gets to make up the rules on what is bad and what is good. The Bible certainly doesn't give us a list of forbidden words. I try not to use words that offend others because I know I am commanded to minister grace, it has nothing to do with any value society has decided to place or not place on certain words.

[greg]

(04-21-2011 10:57 AM)Donb123 Wrote:  

(04-21-2011 10:52 AM)greg Wrote:  PW - Certainly there is filthy language that we are to avoid. Donb123's blathering response is just hilarious. I think his education has gone to his head (pardon the pun)

Specifically which part do you disagree with that makes it "blather"?

If you don't have anything constructive to add or to interact with the thoughts then why bother?

So it is "obvious" to you that I was somewhat insulting in my assessment of your answer to PW, huh? Well it my not be that "obvious" to me or to others reading this, that I was insulting or non-constructive.

Isn't that the way you started your response to PW's contention that since the bible refers to "filthy" language there are "obviously" words that are filthy and bad. Your response "It may be obvious to you but its not obvious to me."

[pastor's wife]

(04-21-2011 11:20 AM)leaving Wrote:  However, I'm still not sure who gets to make up the rules on what is bad and what is good. The Bible certainly doesn't give us a list of forbidden words. I try not to use words that offend others because I know I am commanded to minister grace, it has nothing to do with any value society has decided to place or not place on certain words.

It is interesting how word meanings change and how certain words become more or less offensive. "Faggot" still means in the dictionary a bunch of sticks, but outside of some old books, it's not really used that way anymore. "Niggardly" means miserly, but people unfamiliar with the word associate it with an offensive word so for me, that word is off-limits; I'd never use it because of the chance of being misunderstood.

One common example is from the KJV in 2 Thess. 2:7 - "Only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." In 1611, the word "let" meant "prevent" or "restrain." Today it means "to allow." When did the word change? Who lets words change? I don't know! But they do!

And then of course there are the words that mean one thing in America and another thing in England!

I do find studying words fascinating, but maybe that's just because I'm an English teacher.

[leaving]

Well you Americans are the ones who corrupted the so-called "English" you speak.