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RE: The Great Homosexuality Debate (split from the Jesus Draws Thread) - Historian - 02-25-2011 02:15 AM
(02-25-2011 01:28 AM)Jenn Wrote: So if gays have to change, (and everyone knows that change isn't easy if it really is possible at all in the long run), why does God give some people such a hard life? It seems radically unfair to me. That some people have every desire to change and cannot, even though the Bible says "and such were some of you." "And such were some of you" seems to imply that same-sex attraction goes away after someone says the sinner's prayer and joins the church. So why does God also require years sanctification through ex-gay therapy for these people?
I know I haven't got all the answers, and I appreciate this as a real question. The logic of it is problematic for me, though. I mean, what good does it do to say "God shouldn't give someone such a hard life" when manifestly He does? I don't mean gays here, I mean everyone. The unfairness you mention can be extended in every direction. Why was this person born in a developed country and a loving family, while this person was the fourth kid by four different men born to a drug addict in Kenya? Why did this kid's dad run off, while this one's parents stayed together? Why did this person get cancer at 30 and this other one never struggled with health issues? Why can they have kids, but we can't?
It's the same with whole nations. Why did this country experience a devastating earthquake? Why is this one wracked with floods? The plain fact that no one can deny is that God does not distribute His favors and His blessings equally to all people and all nations. So either God is not does not deal with humans according to our 21st century Western views of perfect fairness, or there is no God.
So while this doesn't answer the question of the whole issue of homosexuality, I don't think we can say that because homosexuals would have a very difficult time means that it must be ok because God wouldn't make it so difficult. Clearly, God does call some Christians out of lives that make change extremely difficult, and brings very difficult things into the lives of many of His people and to many in the world at large.
RE: The Great Homosexuality Debate (split from the Jesus Draws Thread) - Tooktheredpill - 02-25-2011 02:49 AM
Quote:The plain fact that no one can deny is that God does not distribute His favors and His blessings equally to all people and all nations. So either God is not does not deal with humans according to our 21st century Western views of perfect fairness, or there is no God.
If that's the only choice, I'd be inclined to go with atheism. However, couldn't that be a false dichotomy of sorts? Maybe in the future life God will make right all the inequalities of our current existence. I get that impression from Jesus. I think He did kinda emphasize the last being first. . .
I have a rather big problem with arguments that depend on us have a completely warped view of justice/fairness. Why? Because, at least in most cases, those same individuals who say that we have a completely twisted/perverted/unreliable understanding of justice/fairness will argue that our longing for justice/fairness points to the existence of God. Twisted logic in my opinion.
RE: The Great Homosexuality Debate (split from the Jesus Draws Thread) - Darrell - 02-25-2011 08:37 AM
Quote:I do not believe that sexual orientation is a choice.
I agree that for some people this appears to be the case.
Having consensual sex with a person of the same gender, however, is by definition a choice.
I believe there is a huge distinction between "being gay" and choosing to act on those impulses and attractions. It is never a sin to be tempted. It is a sin to succumb to temptation no matter what form it comes in. I agree that the church at large has assigned "too much sin" to homosexuals and not given them a safe haven to be honest about their struggles for fear of being judged and suspected of other misdeeds. I don't think that is truly following Christ's example of dealing with sinners. Yet Christ was not content to merely excuse the sin of the penitent and he never encouraged them to continue living in it. He instead forgave it and said "go and sin no more", which indicates that there was both something to forgive and the possibility of not being bound to that sin.
It's also worth noting that there is nothing in Scripture that say God wants us to be happy all the time. Paul obviously struggled with a "thorn in the flesh" of some variety that he could never completely conquer. The Christian life explicitly one of warfare against the flesh. We all fight those battles in various realms.
RE: The Great Homosexuality Debate (split from the Jesus Draws Thread) - Historian - 02-25-2011 08:40 AM
Actually, I did realize after I posted that there is a possibility I missed. God doesn't deal with humans according to our notions of fairness, or there is no God, or God exists but is impotent in many respects. All in all, I'd rather He didn't exist than to suppose He can't do anything about misery and suffering.
All I'm trying to point out about "our 21st century Western views of perfect fairness" is that is what they are. I live in Asia, and I can tell you that they scoff at our notions of fairness. How is our concept of what's fair the standard by which God is to be judged, or His parts of His Word to be declared valid or invalid. ("That seems like it's like Jesus, but that doesn't...") Not even all other humans agree with us.
I also don't think that our sense of justice is that twisted. Certainly it isn't perfect. Nothing that sinful people are involved with can be. But the problem is not so much that our justice is "twisted" as that it is limited. Limited in scope, direction and knowledge, not to mention that God's rights as the Creator are different than mine, or the governments, or a judge's.
I agree with you that Jesus certainly did emphasize the last being first. But the Matt 20 passage is in the context of those who work for Him–His people, not mankind in general. Matthew 19 and Mark say: And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first. Again the whole context is God's people, Christ's servants who are laboring for Him. These are far from general promises to all mankind.
RE: The Great Homosexuality Debate (split from the Jesus Draws Thread) - Darrell - 02-25-2011 08:50 AM
Let me share a bit of personal experience...
I started a job a couple of years ago and found out shortly after that the man I was working for was gay. Being raised in fundyland, it was the first time in my life that I had spent a large amount of time in close proximity with a gay person. I wasn't quite sure what to expect or how I felt about it. The image I had been given of gay men from my time growing up was that they spent most of their time hanging out in bars wearing leather and screwing anything that moved. But this guy was in a committed relationship and lacked any of the stereotypical mannerisms.
I'll admit that it took me a while, but eventually I no longer saw this man as "Bob the gay" and instead just saw "Bob." When his dog died I gave him a hug just like I give a hug to anybody else in my office who's going through a bad time and didn't think twice about it. He's not a child molester. He's not a crazy partying fool. He's just a guy trying to make it through life as best he can just like the rest of us. He's a friend.
So now I no longer work for him but we eat lunch together sometimes and we talk about God and how he was hurt by the Baptist church he grew up in. We talk about relationships and getting along with people we love even when they're nuts. We talk about families who don't understand us because we're different from them. We converse in ways we'd never get to if I spent my days with my Bible shoved in his face preaching at him.
I still don't condone his lifestyle. Then again, I don't condone the lifestyle of the folks I work with who are living together unmarried, or go out and get drunk every weekend, or cheat on their taxes. But it's not because I'm afraid of gay people or how they live or because I hate them. I'd rather have my former boss for a neighbor than a lot of straight people I know. My opposition to homosexual behavior is simply matter of belief that the Scripture teaches against it and that God has a reason why he called it sin. I accept that on faith.
So all that to say that when I come to these discussions, I don't come to them with a torch and a pitchfork. Mostly because Bob tells me they look horrible on me.
RE: The Great Homosexuality Debate (split from the Jesus Draws Thread) - greg - 02-25-2011 09:27 AM
(02-24-2011 09:50 PM)Faith Wrote:(02-24-2011 05:23 PM)greg Wrote: The idea that that homosexuals can't change is 100% bogus. There are literally thousands of folks that have come out of that lifestyle, and in many cases live productive heterosexual lives. They speak all over the country to youth groups and church groups. There are hundreds of ministries devoted to helping those who are sexually confused and many have been hugely successful in helping these folks to leave this lifestyle behind, and some that are not able to completely leave, at least help them to cope with their feelings and desires in a christian context.Exodus? You want to hold them up as an organization that helps people not be gay?
Probably the largest of these ministries is "Exodus International" they have been around for many years, and have helped thousands of folks to leave that lifestyle. Just google them, there are many other similar ministries that reach out to these confused folks. There is probably not one major city, in the U.S. that is w/out an outreach to these folks.
We even have folks on SFL that admit to having left this lifestyle. There is help for you, if you are willing to seek it.
Those guys are just the tip of the iceberg, very few people actually function as straight long-term after going through the program. Can they suppress their "gayness" for a while? Yeah, but at the cost of immense suffering.
For more information on how ex-gay ministries "help" gay people, see http://www.beyondexgay.com/
The "help" is mostly another load of shame and condemnation, along with strategies to act straight, and encouragement to avoid situations where one has the opportunity to act on one's sexual desires. It's about as good for people as nouthetic counseling is. It's not help, it's abuse.
(02-24-2011 05:23 PM)greg Wrote: I do not understand the complex issues associated with homosexuality, transgendered etc.. I don't pretend to. But because I have spoken out againist anyone that tries to act as though it is an acceptable, alternate lifestyle (homosexual that is , transgendered is past my pay scale) I'm portrayed as a hater, nothing could be further from the truth. I don't hate anyone, but please don't try to "force" me to accept your lifestyle as moral and acceptable, it is not. Just as a heterosexual couple living together, I'm not coming after them, or trying to denigrate them, but if they start putting their lifestyle in my face and telling me that I have to like, accept and support their wicked lifestyle, and even worse, that God supports it, well, ya'll know that's not gonna happen.Lifestyle? How is who you're attracted to a lifestyle? There are as many gay lifestyles as there are gay people. Most gay people I know are not defined by their attractions any more than straight people. Now, are there gay people who are obsessed with hooking up and having casual sex? Absolutely - just like there are straight people who do the same thing. That's a human thing, not a gay thing. Gay <> promiscuous. I know several couples who have been together over 20 years, and one that's past 30 years.
So anyway, I hope this clears up what Greg thinks and believes about homosexuality.
What do you consider "in your face?" Walking down the street holding hands? Fighting for their right to marry? Do you expect people to hide who they are just so your sensitivities won't be offended by their icky gayness? Do gay people ask you not to act straight in front of them?
I started to go into this with my last post, but it was already long. Every time you act as though homosexuals can't leave the lifestyle, you marginalize thousands of people. I understand why you do it, because if they can come out of that lifestyle and live godly, hetereosexual lives, uhh, maybe they weren't born that way to begin with, maybe our own decisions and culture and environment really do play a much larger role than you previously thought.
"Exodus International" is no good because you found 2 homosexuals, are you serious? I guess no on should attend school or go to church or basically stick there nose out of their front doors because, because someone might misrepresent themselves. Much like your nature analogy, about homosexual animals, all of your attempts to justify wickedness fall pathetically short, sin is sin, God's Word has spoken on the matter.
Congratulations on finding a homosexual couple that have been together for 30 years. Maybe you should start looking for Bigfoot, because they are both very rare.
I know I injected sarcasm again, hard habit to break, but I really do appeal to you and anyone else that comments here (although you're the only one that has done it) Please don't marginalize those that have come out of the homosexual lifestyle and are living wonderful, God-honoring lives, they have been through enough already.
RE: The Great Homosexuality Debate (split from the Jesus Draws Thread) - Tony Mel - 02-25-2011 10:40 AM
I concur with Darrell.
RE: The Great Homosexuality Debate (split from the Jesus Draws Thread) - JLL - 02-25-2011 10:58 AM
Try to consider that whenever a gay couple (that can't get married or adopt) see heterosexuals walking down the street, holding hands, putting their engagement/anniversary notices in the paper, pushing a baby stroller, etc. it really is the equivalent of the whole "putting their lifestyle in your face" argument.
As for Darrell, your friend Bob is right. Torches and pitchforks are SO 1970's Orange Julius decor...
RE: The Great Homosexuality Debate (split from the Jesus Draws Thread) - Jenni - 02-25-2011 11:57 AM
(02-25-2011 08:50 AM)Darrell Wrote: We converse in ways we'd never get to if I spent my days with my Bible shoved in his face preaching at him.
I still don't condone his lifestyle. Then again, I don't condone the lifestyle of the folks I work with who are living together unmarried, or go out and get drunk every weekend, or cheat on their taxes. But it's not because I'm afraid of gay people or how they live or because I hate them. I'd rather have my former boss for a neighbor than a lot of straight people I know. My opposition to homosexual behavior is simply matter of belief that the Scripture teaches against it and that God has a reason why he called it sin. I accept that on faith.
So all that to say that when I come to these discussions, I don't come to them with a torch and a pitchfork. Mostly because Bob tells me they look horrible on me.
I agree with Darrell on this one. We have made homosexuality a bigger issue than all the other sins out there, and that just doesn't. make. sense. We're pushing away people who should be shown Jesus' love, because He loves those in the LGBTQ community just as much as He loves the rest of us sinners.
http://frenchizal.blogspot.com/2010/12/unchristian-theme-3-anti-homosexual.html
RE: The Great Homosexuality Debate (split from the Jesus Draws Thread) - Tooktheredpill - 02-25-2011 01:27 PM
@Historian: Thanks for clarifying your view on justice/fairness.
@Greg: Could you please explain what you mean by this:
Quote:Please don't marginalize those that have come out of the homosexual lifestyle and are living wonderful, God-honoring lives, they have been through enough already.
Specifically, what do you consider "coming out of the homosexual lifestyle"? Is living a celibate life good enough in your opinion? Or do they have to stop having attractions to the same sex, too? In other words is heterosexuality (attraction to the opposite sex) what you consider to be a "wonderful, God-honoring life," or would you include those who still have a homosexual orientation, but live celibate lives.