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Piper on demon possession - Tooktheredpill - 09-05-2012 02:10 PM
Quote:So I would say, occasionally you see a manifestation of demonic power that is so in your face and so possessive and controlling of a person's life that an extraordinary intervention and exorcism is called for.
I've been involved in one in my life-only one. But I've read about others and it is much more common on the mission field, of course, where you are moving immediately into places where they are more explicitly demon-driven than we are explicitly demon-driven here.
Really??
This is the same logic that IFB fundies use. We don't see much demon possession in "Christian" America (where, coincidentally, there is access to mental health resources), but, of course, in "heathen" Africa (where mental health resources are scarce) demon possession abounds.
I call B.S.
edit: I realize he qualified his statement with "explicitly," but I don't think that saves his argument.
source: http://www.christianpost.com/news/do-you-believe-we-should-cast-out-demons-today-81111/
RE: Piper on demon possession - greg - 09-05-2012 05:51 PM
I've told the story before, but what the heck, I'm old, I'll tell it again!
I was called off patrol duties to assist in moving a double-murderer from his jail cell to a more-secure cell. I had been working the night this beast shot, cut-up and butchered two of his elderly uncles, never have I seen such a sight, and that's saying alot coming from a retired cop, who spent his whole career on the road.
Anyway I had prayed about the assignment on the way to the jail, and had always thought that this monster may have been demon-possessed based on how he had tortured and butchered his victims. So here we are, about 10 cops and jailers stacked outside this guy's cell, and he's promising mayhem on all of us, the cell door opens and we go flying in and grab the guy, because of all the people I'm only able to get one hand on his arm, we lay him down across the cot and are putting handcuffs on him, when he turns his head around and looks me dead in the eye and says you're a Christian aren't you?
No doubt in my mind, then or now, that was a demon speaking to me!
RE: Piper on demon possession - lucrezaborgia - 09-05-2012 08:47 PM
Cuz there could have been no possible explanation other than demon?
RE: Piper on demon possession - leaving - 09-06-2012 06:42 AM
I'm on the fence. Sort of.
I mean, I totally believe demons exist, and I totally believe that they mess with people.
I also believe in mental disorders and psychology.
There are those who suffer from mental disorders and then there are those who are demon possessed, or influenced by demons, or at least those who have seen or heard demons.
I have had some encounters which I truly believe were demonic encounters, very personal encounters. I don't think right now that anyone could convince me otherwise. It was nothing like a Frank Peretti novel though.
RE: Piper on demon possession - Historian - 09-06-2012 10:25 AM
(09-05-2012 02:10 PM)Tooktheredpill Wrote:Quote:So I would say, occasionally you see a manifestation of demonic power that is so in your face and so possessive and controlling of a person's life that an extraordinary intervention and exorcism is called for.
I've been involved in one in my life-only one. But I've read about others and it is much more common on the mission field, of course, where you are moving immediately into places where they are more explicitly demon-driven than we are explicitly demon-driven here.
Really??
This is the same logic that IFB fundies use. We don't see much demon possession in "Christian" America (where, coincidentally, there is access to mental health resources), but, of course, in "heathen" Africa (where mental health resources are scarce) demon possession abounds.
I call B.S.
edit: I realize he qualified his statement with "explicitly," but I don't think that saves his argument.
source: http://www.christianpost.com/news/do-you-believe-we-should-cast-out-demons-today-81111/
I don't see Piper's argument as so bad here. If you believe the Bible is not lying in describing that demons exist and that they can influence and even control people at times, it only makes sense that in societies where people believe emphatically that demons are everywhere and constantly interacting with them, and have whole groups of people dedicated to appeasing and appealing to them, that demons are going to have more freedom to work than in a society that largely pooh-pooh's the very notion of them. Not to mention that our society puts a tremendous emphasis on the individual, freedom, personal volition, etc. We glorify the notion of the weaker defying the powers of the strong by sheer will and determination. Other societies (including the one I live in) have no concepts like this. To them, being controlled by something or someone more powerful than you is simply a way of life. You accept it; you don't fight it. It's natural and normal to expect in this world.
The Bible constantly teaches that man is responsible for his own actions and choices, and I don't see where demons are given power to control people who are unwilling to be under their control. But I think we're viewing this as Americans, from our very self-sufficient, freedom-loving, supernatural-doubting, defiant–in–our–individualism point of view.
And, I would have to say that your logic is capable of going the other way, too. We don't see much demon possession in America because we explain away everything as a mental health issue. They see it all the time in Africa because they expect to see it. I'm not saying that they don't need more mental health professionals in Africa, or that there are lots more demon possessed people in the States...I'm just saying the logic doesn't work. It depends on what you're looking for and expecting to see. When you hear hoofbeats, you don't look for zebras. Only in Africa, they expect to see zebras.
RE: Piper on demon possession - FmrMarine - 09-06-2012 10:46 AM
Oh please. Supernatural events are more common in poorer, less developed countries because the population is less educated. Let's not forget it wasn't that long ago, relatively speaking, that the greatest societies in the world believed the earth was the center of the universe. They also believed it was flat. With knowledge and education comes an understanding that things have a natural explanation. Primitive people chalk up what they don't understand to the supernatural.
RE: Piper on demon possession - paul - 09-06-2012 03:50 PM
Piper is Fundy. Fundy-lite, but fundy none-the-less.
The fact that he gets some things right and actually preaches grace to one extend or another doesn't change the legalistic bent that he has (and shares with many neo-Calvinists or the incorrectly labeled young-restless-reformed.)
RE: Piper on demon possession - Historian - 09-06-2012 07:09 PM
(09-06-2012 10:46 AM)FmrMarine Wrote: Oh please. Supernatural events are more common in poorer, less developed countries because the population is less educated. Let's not forget it wasn't that long ago, relatively speaking, that the greatest societies in the world believed the earth was the center of the universe. They also believed it was flat. With knowledge and education comes an understanding that things have a natural explanation. Primitive people chalk up what they don't understand to the supernatural.
Which is why I prefaced the comment with "If you believe the Bible is not lying in describing that demons exist and that they can influence and even control people at times..." If you don't believe supernatural things exist at all, you won't really be able to discuss this question. Dismiss it, sure. Discuss it, no. My understanding is the poster believe demons exist and influence people; he's simply taking issue with Pioer's belief that there's more demons possession in other countries and asking for opinions on that particular part of the question.
RE: Piper on demon possession - lucrezaborgia - 09-07-2012 04:54 AM
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/09/demons-v-psychology.html
Quote:Many evangelicals and fundamentalists – though not all – chalk mental problems up to demonic possession or influence. They even believe that depression itself is caused by demonic possession or influence. As a teen, I rationalized that this explained how common depression was among people in “the world” – they were empty and without Christ, and subject to demonic influence and even possession, so it was no wonder! What I didn’t realize was the selection bias involved, and for several reasons.
For one thing, along with many other evangelicals and fundamentalists I grew up believing that Christians should automatically be full of joy because they have been saved by Christ’s sacrifice and now have the Holy Spirit living in them. This didn’t mean we had to be HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY all the time with plastered on smiles, but rather that we should always feel a deep sense of underlying joy even with daily ups and downs. And if a Christian isn’t feeling the joy, well, there must be something wrong with their faith! It was seen as a spiritual problem, and was either hidden away or else addressed as a spiritual problem, not a psychological problem.
And then of course there’s also the belief in faith healing – the idea that depression can be prayed away. In fact, I’ve even seen people specifically pray that the “spirit of depression” (aka demon of possession) that is tormenting someone be cast away in Jesus’ name. And if it’s not working? Well, maybe you’re not praying hard enough. Or maybe you don’t have enough faith. Because if you truly believed, if you truly trusted God, you should be able to keep that demon of possession at a distance! I think, too, it was easier to trust invisible things like depression to faith healing than visible things like, say, a broken leg.
RE: Piper on demon possession - FmrMarine - 09-07-2012 07:47 AM
(09-06-2012 07:09 PM)Historian Wrote:(09-06-2012 10:46 AM)FmrMarine Wrote: Oh please. Supernatural events are more common in poorer, less developed countries because the population is less educated. Let's not forget it wasn't that long ago, relatively speaking, that the greatest societies in the world believed the earth was the center of the universe. They also believed it was flat. With knowledge and education comes an understanding that things have a natural explanation. Primitive people chalk up what they don't understand to the supernatural.
Which is why I prefaced the comment with "If you believe the Bible is not lying in describing that demons exist and that they can influence and even control people at times..." If you don't believe supernatural things exist at all, you won't really be able to discuss this question. Dismiss it, sure. Discuss it, no. My understanding is the poster believe demons exist and influence people; he's simply taking issue with Pioer's belief that there's more demons possession in other countries and asking for opinions on that particular part of the question.
That's like giving credibility to someone who believes in leprechauns. There are leprechaun movies, stories - even a breakfast cereal. That doesn't mean they exist. It's just silly. So is this demon nonsense. There isn't a single shred of evidence for leprechauns or demons despite stories existing about both. And the answer to why people claim this type of crap in other countries is simple. As I said, people in those places are more primitive and uneducated.