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+--- Thread: calvinism & the ESV (/showthread.php?tid=4878)
calvinism & the ESV - greg - 06-11-2012 04:51 PM
I have noted that calvinists have been flocking to the ESV with great abandon, and have wondered why. I have only scratched the surface of this subject, but thought I would post a thread and maybe learn a few things myself.
First I know that the oversight committee of the ESV was loaded with calvinists: Wayne Grudem, J.I. Packer, D. John Collins, Thomas R. Schreiner, Justin Taylor. Of course these are some very fine men, and I would hope they wouldn't have written their eisegesis of the Greek into the text of the ESV.
Many of the contributors were exclusively calvinistic, although the site I was trying to get their names was shut down at this time. So I should actually say that they are reported to be so, however this was stated by a refomed baptist, so I took it to be true.
It seems that the publisher "Crossway" was and is a major publisher of all things reformed and (also publishes the ESV) and may have "flooded" the market with ESV's. (a good marketing strategy)
From what I can gather the ESV study bible clearly leans in the reformed direction, several internet sources said that.
Of course the current Pope of calvinism (Piper) supposedly uses the ESV, and for sure that would signal the "followers" of him and John Calvin to do likewise.
I for the most part relied on internet sources, and did not look at any "source" material myself, if I have erred in any of this please tell me where and add the correction.
I am mostly interested in whether or not the ESV is a solid translation, does it stick closesy to the extant source documents that it uses.
RE: calvinism & the ESV - leaving - 06-11-2012 05:36 PM
Yeah I won't touch the ESV mainly because it seems like the Calvinist and Complementarian crowd like it best so I figure there's a reason for that. That's just opinion and conjecture, though, on my part not and educated opinion because I don't care that much due to the fact that I have two versions I love already and don't need any more.
RE: calvinism & the ESV - That'sWhatItSays - 06-11-2012 06:14 PM
What's wrong with the NIV? The Calvinist church that I attended for a time in the 1990's used the NIV, and the teachers were not adverse to the New American Standard, either. Why the need for another translation? $$$
RE: calvinism & the ESV - Presbygirl - 06-11-2012 06:26 PM
Our PCA denomination church used the NIV until last year. The General Assmebly voted not to use it anymore because they felt that the latest NIV wasn't as faithful to orginal texts.
Here's a good explanation from Ligonier Ministries via RC Sproul. According to Sproul, the ESV is valued for its literary qualities and accuracy.
http://www.ligonier.org/reformation-study-bible/about/why-esv/
RE: calvinism & the ESV - RobMille - 06-12-2012 07:03 AM
I'd love to know how you get the idea the ESV translation has any more or less Calvinist opinions anywhere in it. No matter what translation you use, the Calvinists are going to use the same verses the same way. This is one of the strangest arguments I've ever heard: "Calvinists translated it, so it must be a conspiracy to trick me into being a Calvinist".
RE: calvinism & the ESV - Scorpio - 06-12-2012 07:04 AM
(06-12-2012 07:03 AM)RobMille Wrote: to trick me into being a Calvinist".
*waves hand*
"These aren't the verses you are looking for".
RE: calvinism & the ESV - captain_solo - 06-12-2012 07:40 AM
You are kidding right? Every Bible contains Calvinistic themes, its cause its the actual content of the Bible, not the translation that makes that particular system popular.
(That was fun)
Anyway, regarding the ESV specifically, I find it to have similar reading style to the NIV, except that it seems to have kept some of the phrasing and word order of the KJV, so its sometimes easier for me because I used the KJV growing up. I have basically stopped using the NASB for the most part, the ESV has replaced it in my study process.
RE: calvinism & the ESV - Darrell - 06-12-2012 08:01 AM
Quote:it seems to have kept some of the phrasing and word order of the KJV
This is why I like it.
Greg, you know I am not a Calvinist but can you point me to a group of "conservative" Protestant scholars who would be qualified to do this kind of translation right now who are NOT Calvinists? I have a feeling that if non-Calvinists were doing a new translation you'd find out that they were gay-friendly or Obama-supporters or social-justice-obsessed or some other thing you would find equally distasteful.
Calvinists pretty much hold the line on conservative intellectual Christianity right now for better or worse.
RE: calvinism & the ESV - leaving - 06-12-2012 08:15 AM
(06-12-2012 08:01 AM)Darrell Wrote:Quote:it seems to have kept some of the phrasing and word order of the KJV
This is why I like it.
Greg, you know I am not a Calvinist but can you point me to a group of "conservative" Protestant scholars who would be qualified to do this kind of translation right now who are NOT Calvinists? I have a feeling that if non-Calvinists were doing a new translation you'd find out that they were gay-friendly or Obama-supporters or social-justice-obsessed or some other thing you would find equally distasteful.
Calvinists pretty much hold the line on conservative intellectual Christianity right now for better or worse.
One of the reasons I don't use it is that it reads and sounds similar to the KJV. I have been spiritually abused enough with a KJV I can't even read it, which means I also have no use for the NKJV or the ESV. But that's just me personally. I am now convinced that a lot of these people are KJV only because 1) if you can't understand the KJV you'll take their word for it on what it means and 2) the KJV phrases stuff in such ways that supports their opinions better than the way other versions phrase it, or at least they can trick you into thinking that it means what they tell you it means.
I think it's very unfortunate right now that people look to misogynistic Calvinist men as the main "authorities" (for lack of being able to think of a better term right now) in conservative Christianity. But then again, I'm a Christian but not sure I'd describe myself as a conservative Christian, but it's still unfortunate how many other people see them as authorities and spokespersons for Christianity.
I also think it's unfortunate that as of yet there aren't really a lot of women that are seen as good, authoritative sources. I think it would be better, if we are going to have these kind of men seen as Christian leaders, if we at least had a balance with some godly women seen in that role as well, I think it would balance things out a little. I am hoping that there will be a few women who make the cut.
I do think with the ESV, if the group was completely Calvinist or almost completely Calvinist that it would be easier to translate some passages with a Calvinistic bent that may not have otherwise had that in them. That's why I prefer Bible's that have had a more diverse crowd of people work on them, to me it would seem that it would be possibly a little easier to be accurate. Just my opinion though.
RE: calvinism & the ESV - Darrell - 06-12-2012 08:26 AM
Quote:I think it's very unfortunate right now that people look to misogynistic Calvinist men as the main "authorities" (for lack of being able to think of a better term right now) in conservative Christianity.
Not all Calvinists are complementarian. (And not all complementarians are misogynistic but that's a whole 'nother discussion). See also: Anglicans.