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Has Christianity EVER made the world a better place? - Jeremy - 05-05-2012 10:14 PM
Before I start, let me just say that this is not sarcasm. I am genuinely curious about the following issue.
Has Christianity actually caused any demonstrable good in this world? Like, are there any good things, either tangible goods or intellectual/moral ideas, that are directly attributable to Christianity?
I'm trying to think of some so maybe I can have a more balanced perspective of this religion that I grew up in and that right now I hate very much. But I'm having difficulty because I'm so biased. So outside opinions would be helpful.
Somebody will inevitably bring up Mother Teresa. To that I ask whether charity would exist without Christianity, and the answer is yes.
Somebody might bring up arguments against societal ills such as abortion or slavery that were grounded on scripture. To that I ask whether societal ills would still be societal ills without scripture, and whether we would be able to recognize them as such. The answer is still yes. I also ask whether societal ills should be rejected because they're contrary to scripture or because they hurt people. The answer is the latter.
That's what going through my head right now. If I'm missing something, please help me out.
RE: Has Christianity EVER made the world a better place? - Hollandmichigan - 05-06-2012 08:32 AM
I was just listening to a few debates between atheist and theist and this topic came up a few times.
You ask about christianity specifically so ill try to narrow it down to that.Think of it this way: can you think of any moral or ethical statement that a christian can perform which a nonbeliever cannot? Of course theres none. Now, can you think of any evil deed that only a christian person would be caPable of? Of course, you can think of the catholic church's opposition to contraception (which, when combined with the injuction against abortion, condemns many families to a lifetime of poverty), its posiTion on hiv/aids (a disease which is spread further by the ban on contraceptives), all the inter-denominational warfare, the crusades, the inquisition, the mad woman in africa who preaches that children who cry at night are possessed by devils and are subsequently harmed by their families--the list goes on.
You mention the opposition to slavery, but the irony is that the bible was used by white southern christian slave-Owners to uphold the institution during the 19th century. You mention mother teresa, but she never did anything to help the poor, claimed that poverty was noble even, while she built convents throughout the world and fratenized with corrupt people of wealth. Apparently she later admitted in her own writings that she had ceased to believe in god at all.
I sometimes think that a person with any sense of irony could never be religious.
EDIT: so in short my answer would be, no. And what good they have done could have been done without that belief.
RE: Has Christianity EVER made the world a better place? - Hollandmichigan - 05-06-2012 09:16 AM
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oVZnwZdh-iM
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dlozGOXJNFg
Heres a couple debates that might interest you. They mostly center arOund the existence of god but touch on morality quite a bit too.
RE: Has Christianity EVER made the world a better place? - D-Stan - 05-06-2012 10:31 AM
Yes, white Christian slave owners used the Bible to support slavery, but they neglected certain laws found in the old testament that dealt with slaves. One example is: "You shall not give up to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you. He shall dwell with you, in your midst, in the place that he shall choose within one of your towns, wherever it suits him. You shall not wrong him"(Deut 23:15-16). The Fugitive Slave Act totally went against such a commandment. Thus, some of the slave owners were not reading their Bible carefully enough. Either way, they should have looked at the teachings of Jesus as the main way to treat others. I am pressed for time, but Christianity has influenced people to do more good than they probably would have otherwise if they didn't believe. I mean....if you really believe that loving God and loving neighbor are the two greatest commandments in life, then that will force you to try and change the way you treat people. Can good things be done by people who aren't Christians? Sure, but I don't think that makes Christianity irrelevant to the world. Good things can be done without science, but it is still very important. Religion gives people a sense of meaning and purpose. I hope to respond more fully to this later, though.
RE: Has Christianity EVER made the world a better place? - Hollandmichigan - 05-06-2012 10:55 AM
(05-06-2012 10:31 AM)D-Stan Wrote: Yes, white Christian slave owners used the Bible to support slavery, but they neglected certain laws found in the old testament that dealt with slaves. One example is: "You shall not give up to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you. He shall dwell with you, in your midst, in the place that he shall choose within one of your towns, wherever it suits him. You shall not wrong him"(Deut 23:15-16). The Fugitive Slave Act totally went against such a commandment. Thus, some of the slave owners were not reading their Bible carefully enough. Either way, they should have looked at the teachings of Jesus as the main way to treat others.
But we're not talking about how to treat others here. We're talking about the ethicality of slavery-- i couldnt care less if their masters were "nice" to them.
So you admit that the bible was used to support slavery, and that the bible therefore condones it? Thats an awfully huge concession you're making right out of the hangar.
Where on earth is the commandment AGAINST slavery to be found in the bible? We have ones for not making fun of gods name, not worshipping other gods, not eating shellfish, not murdering or stealing; but not so much as a conversation on the ethicality of slavery--one of the easiest moral questions of all time, right up there with murder, theft and rape-- can be found.
Meanwhile, What you do find is rules regulating the way in which slaves "should" be treated by their masters, and commandments written to those slaves for obeying their masters.
And even if you could argue that there was some sort of error on the part of the southern slave-owners, we'd then have to discuss why god is so sloppy and waited a century too late to correct the matter.
Quote: I mean....if you really believe that loving God and loving neighbor are the two greatest commandments in life, then that will force you to try and change the way you treat people
I disagree that this is true, but lets say that i give you this point, hypothetically. But i find the tone and presumption of this to be insulting and degrading. I certainly do not want others to feel forced into treating me well against their will, and neither do i wish to be forced into treating others well, either. And the awful presumption is that im treating others badly--what if im already treating them well?!
Quote: Can good things be done by people who aren't Christians? Sure, but I don't think that makes Christianity irrelevant to the world"-- sure it does. If christianity doesnt give you anything that you can already have, or already do, without it, then whats the point of believing it?
Quote:Religion gives people a sense of meaning and purpose.I grant that it does give SOME people a sense of meaning and purpose, but that doesnt make any of its supernatural claims true.
A sense of meaning and purpose, by the way, can come in many forms--good food, sex, work, sport, music, art and literature, just to name a few.
--edited for content and grammar
RE: Has Christianity EVER made the world a better place? - D-Stan - 05-06-2012 12:56 PM
I think you are taking my words too far, HollandMichigan. I was simply stating that although the white southern slave owners used the bible to support slavery, it seems that there were somethings in the bible that they ignored. You stated: "even if you could argue that there was some sort of error on the part of the southern slave-owners, we'd then have to discuss why god is so sloppy and waited a century too late to correct the matter." On this point, I must say that I never tried to prove the existence of God by what I said. The whole point is whether or not Christianity is good for the world. Christians who opposed slavery did so because they truly believed that all humans were made in the image of God. That cannot be denied. In response to your comment on my "loving God and neighbor" stance, I am sorry that you find my comment insulting. I meant that people I know who believe that are always trying their best to live up to that standard. It is not that non-Christians treat people bad or anything like that. I was just claiming that it gives people motivation to continue to better themselves in how they treat others. None of us are perfect. So we should all strive to love as much as we can.
I would like to respond to another thing that you said. "If Christianity doesn't give you anything that you can already have, or already do, without it, then what's the point of believing it?" You said this in response to me saying that good things can be done by people who aren't Christians. I would just say that this type of thinking could lead to bad conclusions. Notice that I said "could." What if someone chooses not to believe in right and wrong because they can have things and do things without believing in such notions? In fact, people have made some pretty bad decisions because they believed that right and wrong didn't ultimately exist. I hope you do not take this the wrong way. I am not saying that you or all atheists would say such a thing. In fact, I almost became a full on agnostic not long ago.
RE: Has Christianity EVER made the world a better place? - Hollandmichigan - 05-06-2012 02:26 PM
(05-06-2012 12:56 PM)D-Stan Wrote: I think you are taking my words too far, HollandMichigan. I was simply stating that although the white southern slave owners used the bible to support slavery, it seems that there were somethings in the bible that they ignored.
But you're not grasping my logic. How could the southern slave-owners have used the bible to support slavery if nothing in the bible condones it? It stands to reason that they must have found something there that stood in their favor. Also, you must remember that it is your position that christianity is opposed to slavery. So i ask again, where is the explicit injunction against it? Where is the divine disapproval of this barbaric act? If god disapproves of slavery, why does he command slaves to obey their masters, when he could just as easily have commanded the masters to release their slaves.I submit to you, according to the bible, that rather than oppose slavery god very explicitly endorses it, not only for slaves toward their mortal masters but for all of mankind toward himself.
Quote:On this point, I must say that I never tried to prove the existence of God by what I said.but nothing i said had anything at all to do with the existence of god, so i have no idea where youre getting that from. I am saying, that if god is opposed to slavery, why does he never explicitly forbid it anywhere in the bible? Why did he communicate so obscurely, as to allow his written word to be abused as you claim. Again, i submit that the god of the bible has never opposed slavery but has very plainly endorsed and encouraged it.
Quote:The whole point is whether or not Christianity is good for the world.right, i get that. Its my argument that, not only has christianity not been good for the world, it has been very, very bad for it.
Quote: Christians who opposed slavery did so because they truly believed that all humans were made in the image of God. That cannot be denied.you're right, there were christians who opposed slavery for that reason. But there were also many secularists who opposed it as well. What did the christians do that the secularists didn't? On the other hand, it took christians wielding biblical authority to enslave people.
Quote:In response to your comment on my "loving God and neighbor" stance, I am sorry that you find my comment insulting. I meant that people I know who believe that are always trying their best to live up to that standard. It is not that non-Christians treat people bad or anything like that. I was just claiming that it gives people motivation to continue to better themselves in how they treat others. None of us are perfect. So we should all strive to love as much as we can.but i am not claiming insult only for myself. I am claiming it for humanity. When is it ever acceptable to coerce and manipulate people into behaving a certain way?! And again, there is the sly presumption Of guilt creeping in, with the suggestion that we need "improvement". I am convinced that all religous morality is founded on guilt-tripping and manipulation. But, if thats whAt you like, you can have it.
Quote:I would like to respond to another thing that you said. "If Christianity doesn't give you anything that you can already have, or already do, without it, then what's the point of believing it?" You said this in response to me saying that good things can be done by people who aren't Christians. I would just say that this type of thinking could lead to bad conclusions. Notice that I said "could." What if someone chooses not to believe in right and wrong because they can have things and do things without believing in such notions? In fact, people have made some pretty bad decisions because they believed that right and wrong didn't ultimately exist. I hope you do not take this the wrong way. I am not saying that you or all atheists would say such a thing. In fact, I almost became a full on agnostic not long ago.
Again, youre presuming that people do not have a natural DESIRE to do good. I am not so cynical of people as you are. My point is that non-believing humans can build hospitals, give to charity, fight crime and live good lives; they can do anything a believing human can do, and they do it without the belief. So, why not just cut out the belief and go on with life?
RE: Has Christianity EVER made the world a better place? - D-Stan - 05-06-2012 03:00 PM
@HollandMichigan I believe I do understand your logic. Yes, there was slavery in the Bible. I believe that some of the slavery in the old testament was more like indentured servitude, but I will grant that there was slavery in that time. I never argued that the Bible always stands opposed to slavery....just that there are certain principles and things that some of the people who used the bible to support slavery didn't take into account. The Bible stresses again and again that loving God and neighbor are the two greatest commandments. The reason why I said that I didn't try to prove the existence of God is because I felt you implied that it needed to be proven in your question as to why god would be so sloppy.
I do not believe that people should be coerced or manipulated into behaving a certain way. Christianity is here for people to choose or to reject. I would never approve of forcing it upon anybody. You said that I presume "that people do not have a natural desire to do good." I would just like to say that I am not totally cynical of people, but I think I am a realist. People do good and bad things. My words there were to show that people could argue in a way similar to you and reach some bad conclusions. As far as people just cutting out belief, I just can't see the world being a better place without belief. Sure, maybe certain forms of belief should go, but not all. I don't think that some people can live without belief. It helps them interpret the world around them in a way that helps them live a fulfilling life.
RE: Has Christianity EVER made the world a better place? - Darrell - 05-06-2012 03:28 PM
Jeremy, you're certainly within your right to post that question in the safespace forum but since believers aren't allowed to defend Christianity in here you're not likely to get as diverse a set of responses in here as you would in General Theology.
Just an FYI.
RE: Has Christianity EVER made the world a better place? - Hollandmichigan - 05-06-2012 03:35 PM
(05-06-2012 03:00 PM)D-Stan Wrote: @HollandMichigan I believe I do understand your logic. Yes, there was slavery in the Bible. I believe that some of the slavery in the old testament was more like indentured servitude, but I will grant that there was slavery in that time. I never argued that the Bible always stands opposed to slavery....My aplolgies then, i was giving your position more credit than it deserves.
Quote:just that there are certain principles and things that some of the people who used the bible to support slavery didn't take into account.i see. so your opinion is that the only fault of the southern slavers was in being bad masters, and not the fact that they forced people to perform ardous labor in return for nothing. Am i correct?
Quote:The Bible stresses again and again that loving God and neighbor are the two greatest commandments.no, it doesnt. But even if i give you that, you still have problems: 1. the negroes were not "neighbors", they were slaves, and they werent even considered fully human. im sure the preachers pointed this out in their sermons supporting slavery at the time. 2: the commandment to love gives the game away quite clearly. Its not love if im commanded to do so, its bullying, and its tyranical.
Quote:I do not believe that people should be coerced or manipulated into behaving a certain way. Christianity is here for people to choose or to reject. I would never approve of forcing it upon anybody.and i never said you would. Youre not following me. Youre supposed to be explaining what good christianity does the world. Under the cHristian worldview, it is presumed that people are sinful, horrible people, and that they must believe and follow biblical teaching in order to be better. I am saying that moral teaching under the CHRISTIAN worldview is emotionly manipulative.
"You said that I presume "that people do not have a natural desire to do good." I would just like to say that I am not totally cynical of people, but I think I am a realist. People do good and bad things."--right, so what does christianity do that makes things better? If i woke up tomorrow and christianity didnt exist, what would i or anyone else be missing?
"As far as people just cutting out belief, I just can't see the world being a better place without belief." im sorry, but i believe the question is, how is the world a better place WITH belief? Do you see the difference?