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+--- Thread: I'm Christian, unless you're gay. (/showthread.php?tid=3451)
RE: I'm Christian, unless you're gay. - Tonx - 01-19-2012 12:02 PM
To everybody here who opposes gay marriage: do you have any gay friends in real life? And I'm not just talking about casual aquaintances (sp?); I'm talking actual CLOSE friends. Just curious.
RE: I'm Christian, unless you're gay. - lucrezaborgia - 01-19-2012 04:24 PM
(01-19-2012 12:14 AM)myotch Wrote: Marital benefits benefit families, and children are part of the beneficiary. I'd say, and independent research shows that kids benefit most and best from loving, married, heterosexual parents.
Funny story on that point:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2011/07/defense-of-marriage-act-hearing-turns-comical-thanks-to-al-franken.html
RE: I'm Christian, unless you're gay. - Ricardo - 01-19-2012 04:39 PM
"Basically, it's retrofitting a lifestyle and an orientation into societies not built to take on the burden."
Just about the same argument has been used against blacks and against women. Read the justifications used by Saudi Arabia to restrict women from driving cars. It is just about the same.
RE: I'm Christian, unless you're gay. - Tonx - 01-19-2012 04:40 PM
Also this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/10/lesbians-child-abuse-0-percent_n_781624.html
RE: I'm Christian, unless you're gay. - myotch - 01-19-2012 04:52 PM
(01-19-2012 12:02 PM)Tonx Wrote: To everybody here who opposes gay marriage: do you have any gay friends in real life? And I'm not just talking about casual aquaintances (sp?); I'm talking actual CLOSE friends. Just curious.
I have had gay friends - close friends and best friends - in my life. Right now, not so much, but I do keep in touch with most of them. Time has a way of sending friends away to places that are hard to really connect with. Having a career and a family makes one readjust who is important, who to spend valuable time with.
I have gay family, and love them dearly.
I have gay clients, acquaintances, people whom I have a high regard and respect for. I've even had one clergy member who was as flaming as could be (he has since left the priesthood) - and he was the most talented and smartest guy I have ever met.
RE: I'm Christian, unless you're gay. - Ricardo - 01-19-2012 04:57 PM
Once again, it is so much easier to depersonalize this discussion quoting studies and reports and citing principles and ideas.
Bottom line: we have Jacob here, who did not choose how he felt, did not chose who he is attracted to, possibly has asked God many times to take this away from him, and God keeps telling him: You are precious, just as you are.
Here is a young man who started not liking himself at all, who knows the consecuences of being gay in a straight world, who may have considered suicide many times, who cannot will himself to be attracted to women.
And you continue to talk about agendas and lifestyles?
Talk to your relatives who are gay. Ask them what their agenda is. Most will answer: survival in a hostile world.
There is NOTHING in scripture that can be used to justify treating anyone the way we treat gays in this country. (or anywhere else in the world.)
RE: I'm Christian, unless you're gay. - myotch - 01-19-2012 05:58 PM
(01-19-2012 04:39 PM)Ricardo Wrote: Just about the same argument has been used against blacks and against women. Read the justifications used by Saudi Arabia to restrict women from driving cars. It is just about the same.
The argument against blacks and women come from a place of bigotry and fear. In these arguments, blacks and women are explicitly or implicitly labeled as inferior.
Homosexuals are not inferior.
The case for or against homosexual marriage is not whether gays can have a lasting monogamous relationship, or should be protected under the law in regards to property rights in case of a divorce. The issue is whether there is a societal benefit to recognizing gay marriage *as a right* by state and federal governments. There is no case to be made, here. There is no historical context for the retrofitting of family law to include homosexual marriage, and the philosophical case is flimsy at it's core.
Does government recognition of the right to gay marriage further the cause of freedom? Does government involvement at all further the cause of liberty?
RE: I'm Christian, unless you're gay. - lucrezaborgia - 01-19-2012 06:06 PM
(01-19-2012 05:58 PM)myotch Wrote: The argument against blacks and women come from a place of bigotry and fear. In these arguments, blacks and women are explicitly or implicitly labeled as inferior.
Homosexuals are not inferior.The issue is whether there is a societal benefit to recognizing gay marriage *as a right* by state and federal governments. There is no case to be made, here. There is no historical context for the retrofitting of family law to include homosexual marriage, and the philosophical case is flimsy at it's core.
Does government recognition of the right to gay marriage further the cause of freedom? Does government involvement at all further the cause of liberty?
This makes absolutely no sense. This issue is about fear and supposed inferiority and the supposed collapse of society because the "here come the gays and they are out to get you!!" crowd makes it that way. You have not made a case for there being no case. Again, historical context is just that, context. It does not mean that everything that we do has to be based on what has always been done.
The argument you are using was used against women and blacks and society certainly didn't end when they were given their proper rights. What bad thing will happen if homosexuals marry?!?
RE: I'm Christian, unless you're gay. - Ricardo - 01-19-2012 08:30 PM
"The issue is whether there is a societal benefit to recognizing gay marriage *as a right* by state and federal governments."
No. We live in a democracy, where if you have the votes just about anything is possible. EXCEPT where the courts determine there is a fairness problem.
The Southern states kept writing all kinds of laws designed specifically to deny the civil rights of Blacks. It took a while, but the courts finally determined that "separate but equal" was a sham.
In this case the question is whether 5% to 10% of the population has the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness THE SAME AS everyone else. When everyone else has all kind of laws protecting heterosexual marriages but denying even the right to marry, then there is a problem.
"There is no case to be made, here. There is no historical context for the retrofitting of family law to include homosexual marriage, and the philosophical case is flimsy at it's core."
There was no historical case for a rule of the People, for the People and by the People, which was the Great American experiment.
Family law has been retrofitted severely to give equal footing to women.
What do you mean by "philosophical case?"
RE: I'm Christian, unless you're gay. - Tchaiko - 01-19-2012 09:48 PM
Ok. I'll try to word this in the best way I can. In the most basic, simple form of the issue. Bear with me.
I don't think even the most flaming activist for gay rights would insist on making conservative churches acknowledge gay marriages. The issue is not what conservatives think of the unions. We could honestly care less about how people more conservative than we are view us. The issue is not philosophical. The issue is not moral in the sense that it is presented. Gay couples will be together whether you (speaking generally, understand) legalize marriage or not. Allowing marriage rights will not change what is happening. Then why do we want it? Let me tell you why it's important. Take a couple that's been together for 20 years. One of them slips on a patch of ice on a sidewalk and falls in front of a moving car. He's in critical condition and taken to the hospital. His partner is not allowed to see him, since they are not legally related. They've been together for 101.72 kardashians, but that doesn't mean anything because the state won't give them the same rights that are given to celebrities who make a mockery of marriage. If the man in critical condition needs any decisions made, the decision falls to his closest family member-- possibly someone he hasn't seen since a family reunion when he was 12-- and not the man who spent 20 years by his side. Again, because the government won't recognize their union.
I, for one, don't care what you (still speaking generally) think of me. You can believe that I'm a Godless heretical heathen headed straight to hell. That is your right. You can attend a church that believes I'm just choosing this. More power to you. However, when you deny me rights because you don't think I'm living a good Christian life, I draw the line. When you use fearmongering and Christian dogma to keep America from being the foremost nation for citizens' liberties, my acceptance ends. Not my acceptance of your position, my acceptance of your actions. Just because you accept that I'm gay does not mean you accept my "gay lifestyle." Just because I accept difference of opinion, which I am more than willing to do, does not mean that I accept your attempts to keep me from having the same rights as everyone else.
The only moral issue here is that some people won't let other people's commitment be honored simply because of a difference in religion. America was founded on Judeo/Christian principles. But it was founded upon freedom of religion. And "freedom of religion" does not equal "Christian nation." There are more people here than just Christians. And not all Christians are as conservative as others. I accept that I will be looked down upon and discriminated against in a conservative church. I do not accept that I will be looked down upon and discriminated against in my country.