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+--- Thread: I'm Christian, unless you're gay. (/showthread.php?tid=3451)
RE: I'm Christian, unless you're gay. - Ricardo - 01-17-2012 10:27 PM
Once again, we (or at least some of us) love to put our two cents in when it comes to gays.
However, the original challenge stands:
How do we best show the love of God, to these our friends and relatives who are gay.
We know that statistically gays comprise five to ten percent of the population. Which means, if you count twenty of your relatives, one or two will be gay. Two hundred of your church? ten or twenty will be gay. Same with your neighborhood, your school. Can you count twenty persons in your grocery store? Yep, you got it.
It is so easy to talk about "them" until you remember. "They" are with us. They may not be effeminate. They may not dress a certain way. In fact, they may not have ever had homosexual sex.
They are living a lie. Because we will not accept anyone who is not like us. We may prefer to sit next to a drunkard, or a glutton, or a child molestor, rather than sit next to a gay man. (Because those others we can understand. Well maybe not the child molestor.)
RE: I'm Christian, unless you're gay. - myotch - 01-17-2012 10:30 PM
(01-17-2012 10:10 AM)crystalvca Wrote:(01-17-2012 02:22 AM)myotch Wrote: and that societal benefits of marriage is for the expectation of procreation, I'm some kind of anti-gay bigot.
I am new here to this forum and in no way do I mean to step on any toes or hurt any feelings or do anything to try to 'mix things up', but that statement right there, "societal benefits of marriage is for the expectation of procreation" is one of the things that when I hear it it hurts my heart. I know people who knew before they got married that they would NOT be having children of their own due to medical issues or age. That does not make their marriage 'less' than those who have children in their marriage or those who suffer from infertility with no medical reason. I know a couple who had to make the choice to not have children because they both carry a gene which would result in their children being born with a genetic disease (they did not say what it is but it is heartbreaking for them). This does not make them 'less', does not make ANY of them 'less' because they know there is no expectation of procreation.
Lots of people here with lo's of different opinions. There's good debate here sometimes, and for the most part, there's no hard feelings. Your thoughts are appreciated.
Marital benefits are not a modern concept, and did not come about in a vacuum. In the evolution of civilizations, marital benefits were adopted early and for good reason. And through history, you do find societies more gay friendly, even to the point of encouragement. Yet, even in the most gay-friendly cultures, gay couples have never been offered parity with married couples. Until recently.
I wouldn't be surprised if gay marriage is just a temporary experiment. There is no historical significance, the philosophical significance is superficial, and there is no measurable societal benefit.
RE: I'm Christian, unless you're gay. - Ricardo - 01-18-2012 09:51 AM
There is no societal benefit to tatoos. There is no societal benefit to bungee jumping. There is no societal benefits to tongue piercing.
And sure enough, there is no societal benefits to my two older aunts remarrying.
When did you decide to become heterosexual? I have seen three and four-year old boys who are not interested in playing "doctor" with little girls, but are constantly trying to play doctor with little boys.
At what point do we accept that these urges are God-given?
Talk to your gay relatives or friends. Ask them about it. They will confirm the latest medical research that seems to have discovered a gay gene. It is not a decision. It is not nurture.
We have a wide variety of body types, a long continuum between heavy lumberjacks all the way to delicate ice skaters, and the same on the female side: from the female Olympic weightlifting team going all the way to the most femenine Hollywood star. The same goes for orientation. We all have different attractions.
It is God's work.
RE: I'm Christian, unless you're gay. - Darrell - 01-18-2012 10:00 AM
Quote:At what point do we accept that these urges are God-given?
As I've said elsewhere, just because something occurs naturally doesn't give it immediate moral standing. People are born with all kinds of predispositions to do all kinds of things. We have to judge each on its own merits. But saying something is God-given merely because it happens on its own is a bit of a leap.
Especially when a couple thousand years of church teaching about the interpretation of relevant Scriptures say otherwise.
Quote:They will confirm the latest medical research that seems to have discovered a gay gene.
Do you have any links to serious scientific writing on this? I would honestly love to see it. The last I heard was that a "gay gene" had not yet been isolated. I'm perfectly happy to believe that one might exist. See also above.
RE: I'm Christian, unless you're gay. - Ricardo - 01-18-2012 10:05 AM
Take the sex out of it.
Can two celibate women, who enjoy each other's company so much they have set up a house together. Can they adopt some kids from Uganda? Would it be OK for us as a society to send some benefits their way, to help them bring up those kids?
What if it were two celibate men?
Are celibate men who are attracted to other men sinners? Is temptation the same as sin? What if I simply feel more comfortable around men? Because if you are going to go literal on me, the only wrongdoers would be those who actually sleep with other men.
So the questsion really needs to be about who you ARE rather than what you do.
RE: I'm Christian, unless you're gay. - Darrell - 01-18-2012 10:21 AM
Quote:Take the sex out of it.
Why?
Quote:Is temptation the same as sin?
No.
Quote:So the questsion really needs to be about who you ARE rather than what you do.
But that's not the question that's being asked out in the public circle. It would be impossible to legislate attraction. The only questions that are possibly of public concern are about what people do.
RE: I'm Christian, unless you're gay. - Tonx - 01-18-2012 10:34 AM
My mother is the reason I'm heterosexual. We always bicker, so I was turned off women forever.
...
Wait, what?
RE: I'm Christian, unless you're gay. - lucrezaborgia - 01-18-2012 10:40 AM
(01-17-2012 10:30 PM)myotch Wrote: Marital benefits are not a modern concept, and did not come about in a vacuum. In the evolution of civilizations, marital benefits were adopted early and for good reason. And through history, you do find societies more gay friendly, even to the point of encouragement. Yet, even in the most gay-friendly cultures, gay couples have never been offered parity with married couples. Until recently.
I wouldn't be surprised if gay marriage is just a temporary experiment. There is no historical significance, the philosophical significance is superficial, and there is no measurable societal benefit.
Because in the past, marriage was about property and children were property. You could be homosexual and still be married and fucking your wife to produce children. There was no need to legally recognize a homosexual union. Things have changed since then.
How do you come to the conclusion that there is no societal benefit? Doesn't marriage benefit all children, regardless of whether or not their parents are hetero or homo? You seem to put forth the notion that there are only tax benefits to be concerned about, but marriage rights are way more than just taxes.
RE: I'm Christian, unless you're gay. - Ricardo - 01-18-2012 11:51 AM
(01-18-2012 10:21 AM)Darrell Wrote:Quote:Take the sex out of it.
Why?
Most of these discussions are like two ships passing in the middle of the night.
One side is concerned with DOING. The other side is concerned about BEING.
The DOING crowd seems to say: as long as you are married and you procreate children, then who cares what is in your heart. (Don't you dare seeing men on the side.)
The DOING crowd believe that one can choose to DO homosexual acts. (True) They believe that one can be recruited to become a homosexual, that if you try it you may like it. That if our kids are exposed, they may be infected. They also conflate pedophilia with Homosexuality.
The definition of sexuality as a continuum, of attraction as a continuum and even gender as a continuum is not something that most "DOERS" are willing to contemplate.
RE: I'm Christian, unless you're gay. - myotch - 01-19-2012 12:14 AM
Quote:Because in the past, marriage was about property and children were property. You could be homosexual and still be married and fucking your wife to produce children. There was no need to legally recognize a homosexual union. Things have changed since then.
What exactly is that need? I would posit that children weren't so much property as a family and their dealings were private. What has changed? That the minority of homosexual committed relationships are adopting or having children?
Quote:How do you come to the conclusion that there is no societal benefit? Doesn't marriage benefit all children, regardless of whether or not their parents are hetero or homo? You seem to put forth the notion that there are only tax benefits to be concerned about, but marriage rights are way more than just taxes.
Marital benefits benefit families, and children are part of the beneficiary. I'd say, and independent research shows that kids benefit most and best from loving, married, heterosexual parents.
It's my guess that tax benefits and social validation are what's at stake in the homosexual agenda, as well as hospital visitation and access to divorce courts. Entitlements and forcing employers hands in regards to health insurance play a part. "What can I get?" "What can my country do for me?"
Basically, it's retrofitting a lifestyle and an orientation into societies not built to take on the burden. Therefore, the wheel must be reinvented. I can see why liberally-minded social engineers salivate at the prospect of homosexual marriage.
Again, I'm heterosexual. Homosexual marriage does nothing to strengthen me; that issue is simply not my issue. I don't see how it is necessarily "un-Christian" of me to oppose homosexual marriage, in light of my tolerance and even acceptance of homosexuality in regards to human rights in other areas, such as military service, repealing of sodomy laws, hospital visitation, and a host of other issues.