Here Ryan Price of Ft. Lauderdale Baptist Church gives a follow up to his “Damnable Heresies” sermon that we covered here a while back.
Posted by Darrell
The battle cry of the IFB is “Kill Calvinism”
Calvinism is a FAD?? The ignorance in the IFB is utterly ridiculous. They embrace Spurgeon and they love that William Carey were Baptists but they deny that each of these were Doctrines of Grace Reformed Baptists, who according to their definition of “Damnable Heresies” were Calvinists. The greater part of Baptist were Doctrines of Grace before the “Church Growth” movement folks came along.
The Sovereignty of God in Election, Salvation and the keeping of his Children is in direct conflict with the man-centered doctrines of Chruch Growth and Decisional regeneration. So something has to give and it’s easier to move God off his throne than it is for the empire builders to give up all that control they have over all those converts they have amassed.
So the rallying cry in the IFB is “Kill Calvinism!”
I wish they would just learn to LOVE. I wish they would get involved with social issues (of course still telling people of salvation through Christ) because then maybe they’d be too busy to spend their time attacking other Christians.
You got it right, PW. If the body of Christ put half of the energy they use to argue into following Jesus, imagine what could happen.
Calvinism has been one of the hottest fads in American evangelicalism over the last decade.
“Fad” doesn’t mean that it’s new.
Calvinism is one of the hottest fads over the past 4.5 centuries
Think about this. Fedoras and three button suits are still a fad despite the fact Al Capone did it in 1928. Big beards are still a fad despite the fact Ulysses S. Grant had one first. Coffee shops are a fad despite the fact Ernest Hemingway hung out in them after WWI. It’s the nature of fads to come in and out of style.
I can see where bashing Doctrines of Grace would be considered a fad, but the Doctrines of Grace are certainly not a fad.
After what I’ve seen so far this week, I see the call to bash the Doctrines of Grace is a rallying point for a dying religion. They are running scared and realize that if the sheeple see that God is bigger than the IFB box and their scripted formulas regarding salvation… the movement’s demise is assured within one generation. Then all their empire building will be relegated to the trash heap of history and will count for little more than wood, hay, and stubble.
You’re right Don. The Pelagian and semi-Pelagian (i.e., man-centered) doctrines advocated by Finney, which the majority of U.S. churches have bought into hook-line-and-sinker, is historically a relatively new phenomenon.
How is that working out for us? I’d say not so good. I’d say that most American churches are shameful (e.g., NASCAR pastor).
Maybe, just maybe, the Reformers and the Puritans were on to something. Perhaps we should investigate what those guys were preaching back then.
It wasn’t: “5 steps to a bigger bank account,” or “3 tips on being a better husband,” it was the gospel…it was Christ crucified and risen again.
The gospel is where the power of God is…and the gospel includes man’s total depravity, God’s unconditional election, and His irresistible grace.
I want that kind of old-time religion again – not this Billy Sunday, topical, self-help, self-worshipping, Freudian, Christ-less, behavior modification, life-coach garbage that some Christians call preaching.
I soo needed to read that after night #3. Thank you!
Elijah has it right. As one who has been a Calvinist for at least 20 years, I’ve seen it become more and more popular over the last 15. The sad thing is that many times it is more of a cultural shift than a way of seeing reality. Many of the YRR group see the Doctrines of Grace as a justification of tattoos, alcohol, and Arrested Development. (Not that I am against any of those… except AD) They don’t see the humility and joy that is wrapped together in those truths. They are simply looking for an identity that is not what they used to have. Calvinism is almost a form of rebellion. Its their effort to sit at the cool table.
Nice! Two new posts within a half hour of each other. Great start to the morning. I’ll have to read the comments to see what’s in the video though. Youtube is blocked on my work computer.
Is there a baby running the camera??? It’s hard to take someone serious when they can’t take a response seriously.
OK, Lordship Salvation does not teach that one must be sinless (3:48). He really needs to study more before he puts himself out as an expert.
So much wrong with this whole video. If you’re going to make statements and be dogmatic about what you believe and don’t believe, you should actually know what you’re talking about.
Also, to say that MacArthur is teaching 2 “damnable heresies” and then to say is “I think he’s saved” is a complete contradiction in terms.
Yeah, a “damnable heresy” is one that damns its believers to hell. How can you teach one – and thus be a false prophet – and NOT be on your way to hell?
How can anyone teach heresy and not be a heretic?
Heresy is nothing more than the distortion of truth. Since no one on earth gets truth right, we are all heretics.
It all depends on your definition of heresy/heretic.
What I mean is that by it’s very definition if you claim someone is teaching heresy, they are a heretic. It would be like saying, “So-n-so” tells lies, but I don’t believe he’s a liar.
Paul, Luther, Edwards, Augustine, Calvin, Sproul, Piper, MacAuthur > these 2 guys.
Wycliffe, Bunyan, Huss, Zwingli, Beza, Whitefield, Spurgeon, Carey, Gill, Pink, Montgomery-Boice, Begg, Packer, etc, etc, etc.
Oh, and just for fun let’s throw in the Guinness family name as well. Calvinists who have given millions to the cause of missions and who also make the best beer ever.
Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus…..I’m so glad that Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost. To put these simple, sinful men’s names down as though they hold some special insights is ridiculous compared to the riches we find in the plain Word of God.
Thanks, Greg, we needed someone to say it!
You know I would not mind what this guy is saying if there was a bit of humility, of admission that we are all in the dark, and that this is what -I think- God is revealing to me today…
Also an admission that while Piper and Mac may have some some points we disagree with, all in all they are also trying, the best they can, to follow God.
Because when the final vuvuzela sounds, not everyone in our church, or in ANY church will be counted as righteous.
Not so much the men, Greg. It’s the great truths they embraced. Also, all the great reformers who were burned alive for these truths. Almost to a man held them dear. Nothing more humbling to humans than the doctrines of the grace of God. Why do we run from them? Why do those who don’t embrace them assume their position is somehow a humbler position? Every true Calvinist can shout from the rooftops “Whosoever will!!” As loud as those who do not embrace so-called Calvinism. C.H. Spurgeon is wonderful at preaching this way.
@greg You seemed to miss something. In Polished Shaft’s first list he placed the “> greater than sign” before the words “these 2 guys.” I was simply adding more men that are “greater”. Now let me explain myself, and I’m not speaking for P.S., though I suspect he would agree with me. I am not saying that any of these men are greater in the eyes of God or anything else, but rather that they are far more learned and have studied the scriptures and theology to a much greater extent then either of these men in the video. My list of names does no in any way elevate any of those men above Jesus and to make the assumption that I was doing so is incorrect. I’m simply pointing out that before people like Ryan Price go around spouting complete nonsense on an issue that they should actually be silent and learn from those who have gone before them. I’m also not asking that they embrace the Doctrines of Grace or Lordship Salvation, but at least know what they are talking about before they open their mouths.
Greg, I would try to avoid reading Hebrews 11. I get the feeling you wouldn’t like it.
^ This made me laugh out loud.
Yeah, but that is only for Hebrews. We are special. We are American,God’s chosen people.
You wrote, “To put these simple, sinful men’s names down as though they hold some special insights is ridiculous compared to the riches we find in the plain Word of God.”
As you can see, Paul (the Apostle) was first on my list.
It’s wild that you should say what you said. I was just reading this morning in 2 Cor. 12 where Paul talks about getting some special revelations from God. But, to keep him “from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given [to him] in the flesh…”
So, it appears that he had some special insight.
WOW!!Every sermon Calvinism? I don’t think he listens too awful much.
I read somewhere that JMC just finished preaching throught the entire New Testament verse by verse. It only took him 20+ years or so. When the pencilnecked geek in the white shirt gets through one book expositionally maybe he can say something. *Did I just say that out loud?*
There is nothing more amusing than fundies of all people thinking J-Mac is a heretic for his position on the blood of Christ (something they know nothing about anyway).
This has always befuddled me.
Is that a red, white, and blue tie? If it is, he is preaching God and country without saying a word! brilliant!
Second, I feel very cool to be part of a “fad”. A really, really, old “fad”.
I wonder what his definition of ‘liberal Baptist’ is. I suspect it’s “every Baptist who isn’t a Fundamentalist.” The whole thing is rather confused, so I doubt that either man has a clue what MacArthur really said. The question at issue in the whole ‘Lordship’ issue is whether or not a man can be a true Christian and never exhibit any sign at all of a changed life. It exists because of the tendency of Fundies to think that everyone who ever said the ‘sinners’ prayer’ is a Christian, no matter what they may do next (in the most extreme forms this includes becoming an atheist or a Buddhist).
And I suspect that the book he meant was ‘Ashamed of the Gospel’. ‘The Great Evangelical Disaster’ is by Francis Schaeffer.
The guy on the right looks like the guy on 30 Rock.
Kenneth the Page?
HAHA!!! No, the guy on the right of my screen (the black guy…) He looks like the black guy on 30 rock. (I can’t remember his name but the smile is the same)
He does kind of look like Tracy Morgan before he gained weight. He also kind of looks like Congressman Allen West.
HONOLULU!! Y’all wanna go there?
HONOLULU. I want to go there.
split BAMboo Qualified!
I’m already there, Brother!
Fundamentalists hating other fundamentalists.
Okay, is it irony that he condemns “calvanists” for judging the hearts of men (by aying that 75% of a church may or may not be saved), but then at the end of this sadly arrogant video he does the exact same thing?
“…and again, I’m bothered by his fruits, but I believe he’s saved” Is that not judging of the heart?
This pattern sickeningly repeats itself far too often in (pardon the word usage) “mainstream” IFB churches.
Maybe preachers should always sit down when preaching, he sounds much more reasonable. Like he’s actually thinking it through it instead of just yelling random stuff. I gotta say, I respect him for having a rational response about his opinion. And he gives them credit too, which Is pretty impressive actually.
It just seems like fundamentalist churches have issues with language. It’s either black or white. Truth or Heresy. Why can’t it just be that guy’s best attempt at following God?
“Why can’t it just be that guy’s best attempt at following God?”
Seriously though, I have wondered this as well.
“Why can’t it just be that guy’s best attempt at following God?” Because that would be charity. That would assuming the best of another believer instead of the worst. That would be love which I’m afraid many fundies truly know nothing of.
Sigh. Which reinforces my belief that anyone in ministry who does not take a course in logic and argumentation is doing a serious disservice to their office. Want some fun homework? Try logic-programming this video. It’s like a bowl of spaghetti.
The baby in the background made me laugh SO hard. oh my gosh I can’t even watch anymore! I’m just replaying that part over and over. best video ever
Another preaching looking for an excuse to say ‘damn’
Theology is evil aka the devil is in the details.
I love how, any time someone has a complex theological belief, they are accused of “worshiping the intellect” by simple fundies. Don’t understand? Thoughts too big for ya? Best just call it heresy and be safe.
They tend to like complexity when it suits them, and shun it when it doesn’t. Just another example of SFL: inconsistent arguments.
The complexity of someone’s theology really doesn’t matter awhole lot, I’m much more concerned about its truth and validity and of course if it is scripturally relevant.
Why do they both have their Bibles open on their laps and then NEVER actually read from them?
Image is everything, yes?
SFL=Using the wide-margin KJVs as props.
^^ Like +1
I find it hilarious that he keeps saying that, “John MacArthur believes this…” but he doesn’t offer any quotes or texts to back it up. He just says things, and expects people to trust him on face value.
I actually agree with him. But I thought this “Lordship salvation” stuff was (Exclusive) Brethren, not Calvinist?
Yes… the teaching that is being addressed is much more in line with a Holiness or Pietism than anything I’ve ever heard from a Calvinist… but even this, I don’t think Pietists would talk about sanctification like this. Straw men upon straw men.
They believe Calvinism is a damnable heresy, but by the sound of the audience speaking in tongues is not an issue.
Why would you have a baby sitting near a video camera when you are supposedly trying to be serious? That was hilarious!
Heresy= everything I disagree with. Because I am 100% right all the time. Got a question? I have the right answer. There is no such thing as a difficult question, every answer is clear, and I always get it right. Therefore everyone who has ever disagreed with me is wrong and leads people away from the truth. Since I shun education and “intellectualism,” you must believe that God magically gave me all the right answers. If you disagree with me, you disagree with God, which makes you a damnable heretic.
—From the mind of a true fundie.
It’s interesting to me that they both have open Bible’s on their lap but neither seem to have read Romans 9….
Does the man on the right have an earring? Just how fundy is the guy on the right to be associated with such worldliness?
I lost interest after about 5 min. Usually a Q&A time doesn’t involve a 10 min A after a brief Q. I was as bored as the guy sitting next to him except I could walk away, that poor guy couldn’t.
Made it 2 mins or so this AM. Dude is such a just a poorly spoken PCC dufus I wouldn’t want to listen if he were saying something I agreed with I don’t think.
I think you guys are being purposefully obtuse.
I would pay a lot of money to see this Pensacola grad debate JohnnyMac. They could show the live feed online and it would be delightful entertainment.
This dude and his sidekick are hilarious. Just goes to show again that with the internet now anyone can get a youtube channel and spout their ignorance. Sign of the times I suppose.
Where did they film this?! In the nursery? Between the baby crying and the guy on the right in the blue shirt totally zoning out half the time, I didn’t hear a word the other guy said!! Of course, like the baby in the background, I am a little ADD.
They should have taken a commercial break to change the baby’s diaper…
Are you insinuating that their vid post was full of…. something?
The thing that bothers me about John MacArthur is his anti-Catholicism. He is one of those who refuse to accept Catholics as fellow Christians.
Hey John, my church was founded by Jesus Christ. Who founded your church?
Lisa, a church that teaches against what Christ taught is not a church founded by Jesus Christ. The Roman Catholic Church denies the very Gospel, so it is not part of the Body of Christ. Further, most of the distinct doctrines of the RCC today (the mass, purgatory, transubstantiation, the Marian dogmas, indulgences) evolved over time and didn’t reach their current form until centuries after the days of the patristic writers. Also, all claims of Apostolic Succession are false. A church is a true church only if it believes and teaches the Biblical Gospel. In short, Lisa, MacArthur is right, you are wrong. And it is clear to any Reformed Christian that the heresies of the RCC far exceed those of the IFB.
Lisa, I don’t think JM rejects all Catholics just unregenerate ones.
Is it just me or does Price more or less “call out” MacArthur et al for proof-texting their lordship salvation position around the 4 minute mark? Ironic much?
Xactly! I found myself getting angry at the misrepresentation of MacArthur’s position on sinning after salvation. Makes wonder if he is intentionally being deceptive about the position or if he really doesn’t understand the relationship between redeemed and their sin after being “saved” (I prefer in Christ).
The statement that MacArthur’s goal isn’t to a “reap a harvest” is erroneous. Grace Community Church supports dozens of missionaries. Also, The Master’s College (where MacArthur is president) has a variety of summer missionary trips to diverse countries like Ireland, Czech Republic, Dominican Republic, S. Africa etc. Just because MacArthur doesn’t “force” salvation on people and manipulate them w/ prayers and altar calls doesn’t mean that he and his ministry doesn’t care about evangelism.
I am a member at Grace Community church and have sat under Jmac’s preaching for the last 4 years.
This video vastly misrepresents his views.
Also, at GCC there are baptisms nearly every Sunday- I would guess around 150 people per year. Calvinism does not stifle evangelism.
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