“Ok sin is transgression of the law which law – can you answer what yopu think it is ?
Your point about the law and not being able to sort it. Were you saying the whole thing is totaly irrelavent or just not an outward rule of life?”

Sin is transgression of the law – Christ’s law. Christ’s commands are my rule of life as a Christian. When I break them, I sin. Christ preached with authority (Matthew 28:18) and not as the scribes (Matthew7:29). As far the OT Law, it must be obeyed in its entirety not just the 10 Commandments. You must observe everything. James 2:10 is referring to that. You just can’t “cherry-pick” through it. Question. Were you able to divide all the OT Law into moral, civil, and ceremonial? You can’t. That’s the point. All or nothing. And no one has been ever able to keep the OT Law except Christ.

“If its irrelevant does it mean that Christians do not use it at all ?”

As I said before, look at the OT through NT eyes. Look for Christ in it. If your just reading it (OT) for reading’s sake without looking for Christ, pretty dry to say the least. Christ is in there. I read from the OT everyday but not a rule for my life. If you believe that then you would have to stone adulterers, kill witches, kill homosexuals, etc. That’s also in the OT Law. If you are led to believe to keep the Law (OT), then you must keep all of it including what I just wrote and more.

“What is your view of Paul sighting The commandment to Honor both father and mother for long life(the first commandment with promise if the law is not binding) ?”

I obey it because it was given as part of Christ’s Law (Christ is the author and finisher of our faith, is He not?). Also a lot of quoting done in scripture is done to highlight a point and not necessarily to be obeyed – such the disobedience of the Israelites (Acts 7). If everything quoted from the OT were to be obeyed in its entirety, that would lead to other problems for the NT believer. Again, the context of quoting the OT in the NT, is to see the fulfillment of the OT Law through Christ.

“Are the only NT laws Love God with whole heart and love neibor as self? or are there more”

That is the total summation that Christ expects from a believer. If you have that love, you would be fulfilling all of Christ’s commands. However, we don’t. If we did, we would obey His commands (NT) and not sin but that is not possible. That should be our rule of life and not trying to keep a bunch of OT laws that weren’t even written for a Christian but for a nation. They were national laws to set apart Israel from the rest.

“Do yo see The OT law as a schoolmaster for the time it was around till Christ came ?”

Christ has come and gone over 2,00o years ago. It was the schoolmaster up until he gave Himself for the elect. The non-believers aren’t under the OT law but are under God’s wrath. Satisfaction was made with the perfect sacrifice – Jesus Christ. Why do you think Christ said, “It is finished” (John 19:30)? What happened to the temple (Matthew 27:51)? It was ripped apart ending the sacrifices and all the OT Laws.

“Can you explain your application of John 6:28-29″

I put that in there because as I have already stated on this site many people have railed on fundies for doing things far from being anything scriptural. But reading some of the posts by some on here, write about their denominations (Anglican, Catholic, SBC, etc.) The problem that keeps coming up is they left one problem for another. I pastored 2 churches, have been involved in missions and church planting, and other ministries. I see people putting more faith in their church (a building, denomination, fellowship, etc.) than in Christ. They are stuck on man-made traditions rather than scripture. It’s simple – believe in the One whom God has sent and obey His teachings. Period. Anything else is an addition to it and is another Gospel (Galatians 1).

Ok sin is transgression of the law which law – can you answer what yopu think it is ?
Your point about the law and not being able to sort it. Were you saying the whole thing is totaly irrelavent or just not an outward rule of life?

If its irrelevant does it mean that Christians do not use it at all ?

What is your view of Paul sighting The commandment to Honor both father and mother for long life(the first commandment with promise if the law is not binding) ?

Are the only NT laws Love God with whole heart and love neibor as self? or are there more

Do yo see The OT law as a schoolmaster for the time it was around till Christ came ?

Can you explain your application of John 6:28-29

How can you divide the Law into only obeying the “moral” law without considering the “civil and ceremonial parts.” The OT Law cannot be “cherry-picked” through. You must obey it in its entirety (which no man can do). Many people (myself included) on this site have slammed fundies for being legalistic and picking verses out of its intended meaning and then preaching on them. You would be guilty of that as well when slice and dice the OT Law into what’s relevant for the Christian but what part isn’t. Be truthful here. Go through the Pentateuch, and honestly divide each of the commands into what part it is: moral, ceremonial, or civil. Historically, the Reformers tried to do this (and still try) but the early church and the OT Jews didn’t because it was an “all or nothing” situation. The point I’m making is that the OT Law (especially the Pentateuch) was never made to be “sorted” through in that manner.

Yes, the OT was written for our learning and was our schoolmaster but we are under no legal requirement to obey it as a rule of life as a Christian. As far as evangelism, site one instance in the early church where preaching on the fulfillment of legal requirements of the OT Law were used to witness. There aren’t any. There are plenty of uses for the OT Law used to cite fulfillment of prophecy. Look how Paul and the Apostles witnessed. They preached the cross and Christ. Every aspect of the OT Law was fulfilled in Christ. Period.

“You have to define sin don’t you? Isn’t sin transgression of the law?” Which law? The Law of the OT or NT Law? Hebrews 8:8-13, 10:16. A few quotes from the OT about the OT Law? No, the Jews knew the OT Law. It’s a direct fulfillment of Christ as the new Law Giver. It amazes me how people see Jesus as Lord and Savior but not as the giver of NT Law. Look at Christ’s commands. Are these just suggestions? No. They are to be obeyed just as the OT once was before the cross. Of course, as Christians we sin when we cannot obey Christ’s commands just as in the OT when people failed to obey the Law. Look at the OT through NT eyes instead of looking at the NT through OT eyes.

This site has been some good fun in the past few months but in all sincerity I left fundamentalism because of all the unscriptural practices that I heard and that I even at one point condoned. I feel there are still people on here that are still in bondage without even realizing it because they are still following the teachings of men and their denominations over the Scriptures. John 6:28-29

“But even if we were talking the Ten Commandments, Romans is the perfect example of Paul using the law upon believers.”

So as a Christian, you’re now able to keep the Law? The Law isn’t just the 10 Commandments. The Law is everything: ceremonial, civil, and moral. If you are trying to keep the Law, that means all: the tithing requirements, dietary, etc. That’s what James 2:10 is talking about – “the whole law”.

“I don’t get it. Paul “runs back” to the OT at the 18th verse of the first chapter to instruct the church.”

You must be referring to verse 19 which is a quote from Isaiah 29:14 not verse 18 (preaching of the cross). What has this verse got to do with living to the law? It’s simply referring to the high-mindedness of the Greeks who craved knowledge (I Cor. 1:22). Also, since you brought it up, Paul preached what? The “preaching of the cross”. Not a list of that “thou shalt and thou shalt not’s” for the NT believer.

With regards to Romans, particularly chapters 4-7, the Law is spoken of very prominently but not as a rule of life for the Christian. Paul never once said obey this part (10 Commandments) but ignore the dietary stuff, tithing, etc. He shows how he desired to obey and keep the law but couldn’t. Very instructive. As a lost man, we can’t keep the OT Law so what makes you think as a Christian we are to live by the OT Law? It shouldn’t and most obviously can’t be done.

This is why Galatians was written. Peter got wrapped up in the OT ways again and behaved legalistic. Paul rebuked him and Peter admitted he was in the wrong. Galatians should be read and re-read for anyone struggling with legalism and the OT Law.

As far as giving the OT Law for evangelism, the Gospel which is mentioned numerous times, is not the OT Law but the literal Good News of Jesus Christ.

If you feel that the OT Law is necessary to evangelize, then that’s your choice in your approach to witnessing to others. But as far as the OT Law (all of it, not just cherry-picking what’s “applicable” for the Christian), we’ll have to disagree on that one. I have no intention as a believer in Jesus Christ to submit to the OT Law when it wasn’t designed for that purpose. I’ll most gladly submit to the New Law (NT) and the New Law Giver, Jesus Christ. Any believer fulfills the Law when they love one another.

Well said

Law and gospel are very important. We need to be slammed down with the law and picked up with the gospel.

I think your parents are right.

Whats the gospel without the law? The law shows us how great the gospel is. We cant keep the law. The gospel is given to us. It puts it all on the Lord.

If thats a fundy Lutheran, then call me one too.

We NEED the law to appreciate why we needed forgiveness.

I don’t get it. Paul “runs back” to the OT at the 18th verse of the first chapter to instruct the church. Maybe we’re using “law” in two different ways. The law was not just the Ten Commandments, but rather the salvation history of God in the Pentateuch. Take the way Paul talks about the law involving the release of the Jews from slavery, or the covenant with Abraham, but most certainly the Acts 15 council regarding blood, to name a few. But even if we were talking the Ten Commandments, Romans is the perfect example of Paul using the law upon believers.

My next point is more general on the original post: in 1 Cor 5, Paul has no intentions to ramble on about the sins of others when he has sins within the congregation to deal with. The preacher he says is to “judge the church”. This is a godly exercise if done along with the Gospel to comfort these trouble consciences. Christ came to save sinners. And you know what? You’re one of them and I am to. God be praised!

One of the defining characteristics of fundyism is that the list of sins is determined by the “Man o’ Gawd.” As long as you are doing what the MOG says to do and not doing what he says not to do, then you are a spiritual Christian. And the MOG will never challenge his people to do (or not do) anything outside that list. I know hundreds of people who, even when they hear a good sermon or read their Bible or a good book, pass what they hear or read through the grid of their MOG and totally miss what the Scripture really says.